SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to the Values Lab, a podcast series for entrepreneurs and portfolio career folk seeking inspiration to live a more intentional and values-led life. And today on the show, I have Shelly Flett, who is the dynamic leader, leading with strength and kindness. And Shelly is going to be talking about one of her personal values, which is sustainability. And when I saw that Shelly was uh choosing the value of sustainability, I was uh I was really intrigued for this particular conversation because uh uh me and Shelly know each other very well. We're very good friends, and often when I when I reach out to Shelly, sometimes when I'm on when I'm feeling stuck myself, my energy and sustainability feels off. And Shelly always through our conversation, I always feel 100% better. I walk away with much more clarity, energy, and sustainability. So I'm I'm stoked you've picked this value to talk about today because I'm so keen on your insights. How are you going, Shelly?

SPEAKER_01 0:54

Yeah, really good. And I think likewise, Virin, uh, where we've had conversations and I've walked away feeling a little bit more clear around what I need for sustainability. So it's been good.

SPEAKER_00 1:03

Oh, it's good. Wow. We'll we'll get into this because this concept of sustainability, uh, I mean, the word means so many different things. So I think it's such a great place to start. What does sustainability mean to you as a personal value?

SPEAKER_01 1:16

Yeah, I I think um I think initially sustainability was a anything that meant that I didn't fall into a hole of uh, you know, I had this real kind of feast and famine in my business. And that was just repeat, repeated again and again and again, and um led me to burnout and you know, the exhaustion and the anxiety and the worry and all of the things that come with running your own business. Today, though, I I think I've um kind of achieved this um relatively consistent workflow in my business. That's probably 2024, 2025 were the years that made that work. I think sustainability for me this year um is really tightly linked to abundance and this um focus on, you know what, there's so many opportunities all around me. And so for sustainability, it's about having the energy and the focus for me to be able to create and explore and be free, because freedom is another value of mine to do what I actually desire at a heart level. Um, yeah. So that's kind of that's what sustainability means for me today. So it's evolving.

SPEAKER_00 2:30

I love it. Well, it's actually one of the things I talk a lot about is it's this this process of discovering and uncovering and articulating your values, it's not just a one and done thing. It's they they kind of morph and change, and sometimes the word you use might change, or the word stays the same, but the meaning evolves. So I think it's such a nice just what you've done there straight away is just how it's shifted for you over the course of time. And obviously a lot of the work here is around, you know, working with founders and people in portfolio careers. And I think that feast and famine, I think a lot of people resonate with that because nearly every founder I talk to that is a challenge. So well done on finding a way to overcome that challenge that feels right for you. And um that's so interesting how that definition of sustainability has changed for you. Um and we'll go into some of those things in a little bit more detail, I think, because I think this concept of you mentioned uh the word abundance um and this link between the value of sustainability and freedom, and I'd love to kind of explore that a bit more. So tell me more, what why why is the abundance concept so important when thinking about sustainability for you?

SPEAKER_01 3:32

I I sort of think of abundance from what the opposite is. So if I'm not if I'm not focused on abundance, then what I'm looking through a lens of is scarcity. And what scarcity does is bring up emotions of fear and competitive competition and um comparison, and I've done all of that. And you know, not only is that not sustainable, but doesn't feel good. So I just I feel like I'm constantly swimming upstream as opposed to abundance, is like I'm hopping in, I'm hopping in the stream and I'm just going downstream. I'm just going with the flow. And um, it really, you know, when I think about the dynamic leader and being about strength and kindness, I really struggle to bring kindness in when there's not abundance. So um, you know, for me to to do meaningful work and have a meaningful impact, I need to bring as many people in and along the journey, even people that do exactly the same work that I do. And so abundance really kind of lets me embrace this beautiful community that I have, do work with amazing people, and keep doing it every day. So very, I think, very dependent on each other. Sustainability and abundance kind of come together, I think.

SPEAKER_00 4:52

It's so funny you say that specific thing because my my earliest memory of you, you actually completely like challenged my perception of what running a business is like because uh I met you very early on when I was running the business and we met at an event. And I remember coming home and saying to my wife, you know, I thought that this was gonna be super cutthroat. Running your own theme was gonna be super cutthroat, and that people that are in your space, they're just gonna be guarding their territory. And I met this person, Shelley. She basically does exactly like or very, very similar at that time. We did very, very similar things, and she was just so nice and generous with her advice. She's connecting me to people. I was like, my mind was like blown, and it was such a nice experience to have early on to challenge that conception of it, doesn't need to be like that. Totally.

SPEAKER_01 5:33

Um Yeah. Well, and I think um I think it you really notice people that um that don't have an abundance mindset. Like they they are very guarded, they'll be the people that's like, don't touch my IP, this is for my eyes only. Um, you know, I will say to even organizations that I work with, because I I know that people have got budgets and you know, they're working within sort of tight constraints. It's like, look, I'm gonna give you this because the other part to sustainability is to have the freedom to create. So if I'm holding on to all of this stuff, it doesn't allow me to go and create more stuff. And um, so having an abundance mindset, it's like, well, the more I share, the more space I have in my brain and through interactions to create more really cool stuff. Um, so yeah, I might share it. Who cares? You know, I'll give it to you, you make it better, or whatever. It just adapts. And as long as it makes people's lives better, that's all I care about.

SPEAKER_00 6:34

That's awesome. It's so nice to hear. And you can see it's just flowing through you, just these concepts when you talk about them. It's just like, yes, of course, this is the only way to do it. If I it's like when did you kind of discover that this was one of your personal values? And tell me a little bit more about the history of it and when did you discover it? You've already talked a little bit about it's evolved, but when did you first identify this is an important construct for you?

SPEAKER_01 6:57

I think I I definitely think uh tiredness.

SPEAKER_02 7:03

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 7:04

Ah, Veren, I just got so tired. And and I think also like feeling very tired, um, you know, because my my business is my my business turns 11 in May. Um but also, you know, my kids are older. So I've got um two teens and and one who's 10. And um I I love parenting. I will confess I did not like um parenting when the kids were dependent on me. Um and so now they're all three of them really independent. They're fun, they help me create, they I just and I just want to be a mom to them. Um, but I also want to keep running my own business. And so sustainability really became a thing. I think when my eldest son started sort of dropping by my desk randomly throughout um the my work day, and I noticed that um he didn't do it very often, but when he did, he had something to say. And if I didn't drop everything and just be fully present with him, I would lose that moment. It never came back. He would just go away and and I'd and so being able to capture these really small moments with him to understand what's going on in his life, what does he need? You know, this is I think where real leadership kind of stands up. It's like, how do I show up for you in the moments that matter? Um, and so for me, it required sustainability. It it required me to go tools down. I actually can adapt, I can, I can be there for you, but I had to have a business that was built around that. Um and I love it, yeah, I love it. It's just so good. I love being a mum and I love owning my own business, and I'm not trading one thing off for the other, um, which is very cool.

SPEAKER_00 8:53

I love I love how you've described like the the context and environment. You do you have like it wasn't feeling right, you were feeling tired and you weren't able to attend to the things that you wanted to attend to. You're and I think often it's those moments, there's that that there's a conflict happening, and it's like there surfaces well, what's actually important to me. Um and I find it's really fascinating they talk about then sustainability is your way to then be able to do both of the things that you love without trading one off against the other. Because I think sometimes, again, there's a misconception that you do need to do that, you need to sacrifice all of this to get that. But does it need to be that way? And I think it's it's great that you kind of challenge the the status quo.

SPEAKER_01 9:29

Oh, and I did not do it alone. Like I had a coach to sort of help me to go to recognize that I was attaching a lot of meaning and worth to busy. And so I really had to kind of disconnect from um this like success, meaning um, you know, that it required sacrifice. It's probably the best way to describe it, as like in order for me to succeed, I must sacrifice. And I think that was something that I just believed for such a long period of time. Um and it's not true, you don't have to.

SPEAKER_00 10:01

No. And I think we're sort of sometimes we're fed these narratives and we kind of internalize them. And I think that's part of the process of actually, well, what do I actually value? What does success actually look like to me? Is a very, I think, important question. And obviously to you, it's being able to balance the things that are important to you, the business, your family, as well as sure other things as well. So and to do that, sustainability is pretty important. Do you uh you mentioned the coaching process was useful to you? Are there any questions, specific questions that helped you unlock this insight around sustainability? Because I think um Yeah you would love to know are there questions that spring to mind like this? Was a doozy of a question? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:41

Yeah. Uh the most annoying question, because it's so good, um, that my coach would ask me is um, what do you what what work do you do that gives you energy? Um and it was like, well, it's this kind of thing. But I think what I was doing without her asking that, I think what I was doing was kind of treating these opportunities, these opportunities that gave me so much energy as like diamonds in the rough. They were really rare and and I couldn't have them all the time. Um and so what she did was just challenge, well, what if you just did that? What if you just did that work? And so it allowed me then to go, okay, so if I'm just going to do this, what do I have to say, start saying no to? Um, and so it was so it was annoying because it was so obvious. Um, but yeah, it's like, what what's the work that lights you up and gives you energy? And what's the work that depletes you and drains your energy? Because it's not necessarily the amount that you're doing, it's the energy toll that it takes.

SPEAKER_00 11:43

Yeah. I'm such a big proponent of that as well. I think there's we know there's the composition of what you do, the task you do. But I find it interesting in your instance as well how it goes so hand in hand with abundance, because if you've got a scarcity mindset, you are looking at these good pieces of work of diamonds in the rough. Well, you're gonna approach that completely differently if you've got an abundance mindset. Actually, they're not. There's probably lots of them, or enough for me to sustain a bit uh a business. Um but that abundance shift is so important.

SPEAKER_01 12:11

Yeah, yeah. Oh my gosh, there's so much opportunity out there. Like leadership is in crisis, in my opinion. Um well, we don't yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:19

I mean all weeks to be talking about this, yeah, there's so much you you just need to open up any news feed to see how much of a lack of leadership we've got across the world. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:33

So yeah, well, and also, you know, how uh work practices and technology and everything is shifting, that we're in this space where we actually have to redefine what leadership looks like. And um, you know, for me, I feel the best way to do that is to model it. So you so understanding sustainability and how that shows up and abundance is um then something that I'm actually living and breathing and then and then sharing with other people to go, this is how you this is how you can do it.

SPEAKER_00 13:02

Yeah. I love it. I I think um one of my favorite strategy people for kind of founders and entrepreneur folk is uh Alex Smith. And he often talks about it's actually competition's great. You like everyone's got a place to play. Yeah, the only time it's a it's a problem is when you don't clearly understand what value you offer and how you're different to the competitors, but actually the way you do things could be the polar opposites to the way a competitor does them. And so there's space for both of you. And in fact, there's lots of different axes to differentiate on. So there's space for space for everyone. Yep, absolutely. Yeah. Depending on our unique perspectives and the way we approach these things. So what I'd love to obviously, this is a very important uh construct to you. I'd love to know how do you you've already mentioned a few things around, you know, it's an important construct for your business with your family. I'd love some like specific things that you do, maybe to like embed this practice of sustainability into your into your business. What are some of the specific things you're doing or decisions you're making to ensure this is a value that's kind of front of mind for you?

SPEAKER_01 14:01

Yeah, I mean, this is given that I thought about sacrifice, success and sacrifice being connected for so long, this is something that I'm still very intentional about um, yeah, bringing to life every day. So um for me, it's you know, I kick the day off with some kind of movement. So I I go to the gym and you know, I love working out. I've got loads of energy, so it's really good for me to be able to get rid of some of that at the beginning of the day. Um, and then meditation and um I I like variety. So I there are some meditative, mindful, maybe like centering practices that I will kind of swap in and out. So um, you know, sometimes it'll just be walking in the reserve with my dog and not having anything on, um, but just letting like giving myself the space just to be my mind to be still and just like clear it out. Um, there are days where I will do um guided meditation or mindfulness. Um, there I do emotional clearing sometimes. Um I have a um I have a video that I made that it's like you know how you have a vision board, it's like a vision video. Um and so I've got this kaleidoscope video at the beginning to help me kind of get into that trance space, and then I've created my own video on what I want my life to look like. Um, and so I'll play that just as a reminder of, you know, remember this is where you're going and this is what you want. Um, and yeah, then other other times it's like mantras. I've got affirmations and mantras stuck up everywhere. So it's very intentional. Like I do a lot, um, as well as seeing my coach who will just keep me on track and say, what are you doing? Where are you spending your time? What's your energy like? Um, and really helps me. She meets me where I'm at, but also it helps me to move forward because I do find I still get stuck sometimes. Um and you know, saying no to things is part of the process, and I've never, never been great at that.

SPEAKER_00 16:13

No, well. So I guess let's unpack because it sounds like a lot of this is about energy management for you. So I think there's this practices that sound like daily practices you're doing to manage your energy or get in the right energy space, and it's um so interesting because my background sports psych and all these techniques like you know, visualization, they're so underplayed in everyday life. Mantras like athletes are using these things to stay focused and perform really well and manage their kind of energy and well-being. So it's uh it it's so interesting that amongst other practices, you've got these to help manage yourself. And so good you do them every day. But there's this key thing, you mentioned it earlier when you're looking at work, is there's there's this to be sustainable, but we've got to be in a position where we say can say no to stuff. How how do you is there like a have you come up with a a way of determining what you what you say yes and no to? And I guess a adjacent question to that is what puts that under pressure? So what are the things that puts that ability to say no under pressure? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:09

Oh gosh, Varon, you and I have spoken about this time um or you know, the early stages of the year, that December-January period for us, because you know, a lot of our work stops over that Christmas New Year period. So I have to be really careful in the months of late January, early February, where I am inclined to say yes to anything to get the income coming back in. Yeah. Um, and so that's that's one of the um I I guess I'm on higher alert. Like, what is it? So I will intentionally ask myself, is this something that aligns? Does this piece of work align? As long as I am doing my morning ritual and I'm making sure that before I start my work day, I'm I'm centered, I'm fully connected to what it is that brings me energy, what it is that I want. Um I will know when something's not right intuitively. I'm learning to trust my intuition. And, you know, that's probably an area of growth and development for me over the next few years is how do I, how do I shut down this social conditioning, things that I've been led to believe that don't serve me, and start to actually um rely more on what's my gut telling me, what's my intuition telling me about these things? Um, and when I'm connected to myself, my intuition will tell me when it's not the right fit. And sometimes I'll say, Do you know what I don't think I'm the right person for you, but I do have some people I can share. And this is also the cool thing about abundance. It's like I I will know when people will get more out of Viran than they will out of Shelly. And you know, here, like go have a conversation with him because I want the best outcome for my clients. And so making sure that I'm um offering them the best outcome. And sometimes I'll say to clients, you're you're what you're wanting isn't achievable. Like, I want you to come in and change my culture in a day.

unknown 19:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:04

It's like good luck.

SPEAKER_01 19:05

It's like that's awesome. Yeah. But uh nah, I'm not that person. And and so, you know, being really honest about you know, is this actually what you want? Because if this is actually what you want, then first of all, good luck. But second of all, you know, I'm not the the right person for you for that.

SPEAKER_00 19:21

Yeah, so I guess it sounds like really clear on what's realistic, what are they what are they trying to achieve? Are you the right person? Trusting your intuition, I think. Um such solid things to be be doing. What makes it hard? What makes it hard to do these things? Because you mentioned something you're kind of like, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:40

Yeah, well, I think every time you say no, you're saying no to income.

SPEAKER_00 19:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:45

When you you know when you run your own business, yeah, uh it's like, oh, I don't do the work, I don't get paid. Like it's really hard for particularly some of my clients, they just they don't really understand the financial investment that every minute of your day has. You know, it's like you want a half an hour conversation with me, that's fine. You know that I'm not getting paid for it. You're still getting paid for it. Yeah, working in organizations. I think it's very hard for them to get their head around that, and they will not protect your space. So you've got to get really good at protecting your own space. Um, and you know, I'm I'm 11 years in now, so I I still get occasionally I still get caught off guard and I'll say I'll say things that um, you know, then cost me. It cost me time and and it cost me potential income. And so I mean, income's still important. I wish it wasn't. It it is. So that's probably the hardest thing.

SPEAKER_00 20:42

I think that's that but it is the reality. It is like the I mean, we this is how we get paid. We're not we don't have a um a full-time income coming in. So yeah, uh, it is always that tension between, yes, as I'm not if I say no to this thing, I'm reducing my income. So I'm hoping or I'm uh more than I'm engineering like that, I can bring in other opportunities that'll fill this void, but that will come under stress. I know for me personally, there's like if if there's a there's times where the cash flow is lower, the pipeline is looking a bit quieter. You start opening your mind, well, do I take on work that is not as aligned, that is not as energy fulfilling. But I also know from history that's had a cost to me, which is like when I do that, that sucks me deeper into the pit because I don't do the things that actually grow the business in a in a good way. I stop producing content, I stop getting out there, I stay at home more because my energy is zapped by doing work that's misaligned. So there's a long-term consequence to it.

SPEAKER_01 21:36

Um, I think you and I have uh have caught up at times where one of us has been in that space and have needed the other one to go, come on, get out of your hole. Get out, come on. Oh, I think it's so important. I think connection is so important, you know, for for the work that we do. Um and and I, you know, it's It's also this trust that I'll be okay. Like I always come back to I could always go milk cows. Yeah, I I grew up on a dairy farm. I I then you know lived on an orange orchard. So it's like I could go milk cows or pick fruit. And so sometimes it's having that conversation with myself and going, you're okay. Like you're you're being a bit dramatic now. You're not going to not, you know, I I I've got three kids and you know, I've support them um, you know, as a as a single parent or a solo parent. Um, and so yeah, you do worry about the can I actually put food on the table and the roof over my head. I've never even come close to not being able to do that. Yeah. Um so it's like, how do you like calm your fear at the activation so quickly? It's like you'd be fine.

SPEAKER_00 22:51

Um, but it does kick it kicks in. It doesn't take much either for it to kick in. It's like you get a couple of no's on some proposals or interesting pieces of your work you want to work in, and all of a sudden it can spark this crisis of confidence. Like, am I doing the right thing? Is this the right decision to say no to other pieces of work? Have I been silly? Yep. Um, so you your brain kicks into gear and it does take a lot of uh I think intention to calm some of those voices and noises.

SPEAKER_01 23:15

And help sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 23:17

Well, and help. I think this is it, but it's it is an important part, is reaching out to people where you kind of when you get those things start kicking into gear, it's like, well, I don't need to figure it all out myself. Um it's uh it's important to reach out. Uh something I'd be curious to uh learn about um is uh you mentioned some of the rhythms and rituals you used. Are there any is there anything you've done from a business model design perspective to improve the sustainability of how you operate? So are there you know um are there any dis decisions you're made about how you design things, how you deliver services which help you deliver in a more sustainable way? What what is what are some what's just some of your thinking around that? Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:00

Yeah. Uh for me it's about um it's about impact. So um, you know, the the most amount of impact that I can give. So um when I'm designing work for clients, it's understanding what their constraints and their capacity to take on things are, as well as is this actually achievable? And so um it's taking a little bit more time these days to go, what do you actually want? How do you move to a space where I'm not a band-aid? Like I think, you know, sustainability for me is not it's not just sustainability for me and my business practice, but it's how do I teach leaders and businesses to be more sustainable in how they operate? So you invest in me coming in for a little bit longer and then I walk away. And you don't need the next person to come in. Um that's not to say you don't need anything, but you don't need the same, you don't need the same kind of content repeated in a different way by another person. What it looks like from a business practice is I'm gonna, I'm gonna level you up as a leadership team, as an organization, and then you can find someone else who will level you up again, as opposed to this, like, oh, we got Shelly in, and then you know, things go so it's that um it's sustained change, it's it's transformation um for leaders. And so I've been really um disciplined in making sure that the work that I'm doing is actually transforming, not just reminding.

SPEAKER_00 25:37

And it is again, I think there's a tendency, and we obviously we're in a similar space, and I think this is where we're very we're we are very similar in our perspective, where we don't want just a plug and plan, just go in and just deliver like a two-hour workshop and then go away again. It's like, well, there's no sustained change with that, or there's limited sustained change with that. It's like, can we step back and think about this a bit differently? So in doing that, are you are you basically saying, look, the things that need to be done are bigger? Are you spending more time up front with clients to better understand some of the challenges? What are some of the like little bits and pieces you're doing to yeah?

SPEAKER_01 26:12

Yeah. So I um I'm now a little bit hesitant to lock a program, you know, a six-month program will like each session will look like this. I'm more saying, this is an idea of where we might go, but actually what I need from you is some feedback. So I'm really challenging leaders today and leadership teams to actually own the part that they play in the development journey so that I'm partnering them, I'm not just facilitating. So I think that's been a really big shift in that, you know, I can do, I can do what I can do, but a lot of this is up to you. So what are you going to do? And then um, can you give me feedback on what's working, what you're resisting because you need it or resisting because you don't need it, and you know, what's the difference? And then how can we adapt the program along the way? So really being super fluid with the with the program. So it requires more of an administrative kind of um more administrative activity in between coaching or or workshops, but um, gosh, you see such a a bigger difference. Um because I I know people, but what I don't fully understand is the culture of the organization and the nuances and you know, things that that leaders will understand in theory, but in practice it just doesn't work. Unless you tell me that in practice that doesn't work. Well, how how do you you just nod and smile and go, that was great, Shelly. Not here, not now. Yeah. That's not helpful.

unknown 27:45

No.

SPEAKER_01 27:46

And you know, I've got like I've got lots of I've got lots of ways to to work with people. So it's like, well, that's not the right tool for you then. Yeah, what about this one? Um, or maybe the the tool doesn't exist. Let's design one, but let's do that together. So it's kind of like meet you where you're at, figure out what's gonna work, and then adapt as you go along. It's it's it's great. It's actually so much more rewarding, even though it does take a little bit more time. It's so much more rewarding.

SPEAKER_00 28:14

I love it. I love that simple. Just don't you don't need to map out every bit of content throughout and actually let's keep a lot of open space, let's have these big headlines of what we're trying to do. But let's see. Like if everyone tries something and it doesn't work, well let's figure out why not. Like what's going on in the in your context and environment that stops these types of things happening. And maybe the conversation needs to be something different and we need to look at something different. I think it's um I'm such a big fan of like some level of co-design in these things, even if it's light, even if it's just you know, adapting just based on the feedback to the last program. Like let's keep that loop going. Um I think it makes it makes such a big difference. And I think um again, where we've got alignment, I I call it around I self-sufficiency is the word I use. I want to build self-sufficiency. I don't want you dependent on me. I'd rather come in and as I say, roll something out so you've actually got then the ability to even modify it yourself so you you can figure out how to make it work in your environment by the end of us working together.

SPEAKER_01 29:11

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yes, you and I are definitely the same on that one.

unknown 29:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:17

I think it's good. And I've similar things to you, yeah. Co co-design, I think looking at spanning out not just a single session, but trying to do multiple sessions or yeah, and doing more of a diagnostic deep dive up front in terms of what the actual issues are and what the culture is. I think it's so important. Now you have your own podcast that you run. I'm talking about a lot of these types of concepts. Um, and I know you're you're focusing on a on a theme of defiance a little bit more this year. So you've got the Dynamic Leaders podcast. There's something about defiance in there. Tell us more. What's uh what's happening in in your podcast space at the moment?

SPEAKER_01 29:51

Uh yeah, so this is this year I'm being very intentional about the the topic, and the theme is around defiance, but it's not defiance as in I'm here just to disrupt you just for fun. That was something.

unknown 30:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:07

I was gonna say I used to do that for fun. Um I've found other things for fun now. Um I this is this is really kind of like what we were talking about in the beginning around sustainability. It's it's that connection between sacrifice for success. It's the, you know, how do I defy that? How do I actually say, yeah, but what what if it wasn't? Like what if we didn't do that? Um and you know, I I've I think I've been doing that myself for my whole life. Uh, but really having the courage to talk to senior leaders now about um practices, practices that have been around for a really long time but don't actually work. And maybe no one's mentioned that actually they don't work, or you know, people don't give feedback to senior leaders. Um, I I have worked a lot with, you know, C-suite um leadership teams over the last couple of years, and I've I've actually been a little bit disappointed by their uh lack of ability to be challenged. Yeah. They get really upset really quickly, and you know, there's this whole power dynamic that comes into play. Um, rather than, you know, you know the difference between a really good senior leader and one that's not so great is that the really good senior leader will go, hmm, okay, I'm listening. Yeah. And the one that's not, it's like, you know, it's the um, well, I don't have to listen to this. This is my opinion and this is the way we do things, and that's the end of the story. Um, and so yeah, it's been I I think senior leadership teams still need a bit of a shake up. Um I think they're they're sitting in their ivory towers. Oh no, they don't. And yeah, you might say that you don't, but if you're not getting feedback from your people to say this doesn't work and I don't like that, and what are you doing here? Uh if you're not getting that on a regular basis, then you're probably in an ivory tower of some description.

SPEAKER_00 32:00

It is like it that this uh if you're not hearing anything, if you're trying to win every conversation, you're not like these are some of the things I think when you mentioned power dynamic, that's the thing I often will talk about is your role, especially in the you know, settings where you're working with your people, is to try and eliminate that power dynamic because when you when it's there, people will just be quieter, they'll share less. So your job is to do whatever you can to try and reduce that feeling of this power differential. Um, and it takes a lot of intention, as you know, like yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:30

And and the um and the more seen you are in your role, the harder that's gonna be. And the more you just kind of have to hold this um this space, like let people talk.

SPEAKER_02 32:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:41

Um, there's some really simplistic things like ask a question, let people talk.

SPEAKER_02 32:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:47

Just, you know, don't be the first person who gives their opinion on on things. There are still too many senior leaders who can't help themselves. No. Got something to say.

SPEAKER_00 32:56

I was gonna say speak less, speak last. That's it. That's your that's your job. Just go in with that mindset.

SPEAKER_01 33:01

It's uh because it's uh and what I'll say to to any senior leaders who've got something to say is come on my podcast. Like it is like that's your platform. That's your platform to to speak. Yeah, but n know when it's time to not.

SPEAKER_00 33:19

Yeah. Exactly. On that note, don't we just go is it it's probably my my time to zip. On mine. It's so it's so good to have you on. I know we we have these kind of conversations all the time, so it's amazing to be able to uh capture it. But specifically, I think, yeah, your perspective on this is it is so interesting, and I think it's made me really think about my energy management practices, especially like like what am I doing in the morning to set things up for success. So it gives me plenty of uh food for thought.

SPEAKER_01 33:50

Yeah, absolutely. It is not about ticking things off my to-do list these days. Um it's I still have a to-do list, but if I get to it, I get to it. If I don't, then that's cool. Um and if I don't ever get to it, then it shouldn't have been on there in the first place.

SPEAKER_00 34:04

So that's telling you something in and of itself, isn't it? We learn. Uh thank you so much. And I'm sure I'm gonna see you uh very in the very, very near future.

SPEAKER_01 34:15

Yeah, absolutely. Thanks, Virin. It's been so good.

SPEAKER_00 34:18

See you later.