SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to the Values Lab, a podcast series for entrepreneurs, founders, and portfolio career folks seeking inspiration to live a more intentional, values-led life. And today on the show, I have Nick Hinwood, brand strategist and founder of Keo. And Nick's on the show today to talk about the value of community. I've always seen this community ethos through Nick. So I'm uh really looking forward to unpacking the value of community together with you, Nick. How are you doing? Really well, Varen. Thank you for having me. Yeah. My absolute pleasure. And uh I I guess I've seen this value shine through in you, but I'd love for us to start with this. You know, you've picked community as the value to focus on. What does community mean mean for you?

SPEAKER_00 0:42

Yeah, uh community is a common, like it's a it's a combination, I suppose, of uh ideas, of people, of effort, and it's a shared uh it would be a shared understanding of um in it together for a a a greater good. Uh so it it kind of removes, I feel like it removes expectations and egos and puts us all at the same level to work towards a common, a common goal or theme or objective. It's it's a it's an understanding that and trying to drill this into one word, but it's it's an understanding that there's an accountability to community as well. I think there's a standard there that you have to um set, uh you have to lead with, uh you have to fall fall in with because it's being part of a community means being a contributor as well.

SPEAKER_01 1:36

So I think that's that's some really interesting words you've uh infused there. Because I I see from my perspective the word community gets thrown around quite a lot. And I kind of, you know, people are building communities. I know I always look at it. Part of our community. Yeah, and I kind of go, is this a is this a genuine community? Or is this something else? And I like um and that's why I was really fascinated to unpack this with you. And you've already mentioned some terms there, which I don't think often get get included when we talk about, which is this accountability and effort on almost I think what I was hearing on everyone's part. And it's um could you talk to me more about why that's important for you? What what do you see when that happens or when it doesn't happen?

SPEAKER_00 2:11

Why why I see accountability inside a community or or having kind of that as important as um the makeup of everything else inside community. To me, it comes from being a ri a regional town. There's a intrinsic behaviour that when you're in business, when you're contributing, when you're collaborating with people, uh you will uh inevitably see things differently. And that will that may or may not cause uh conflict. Uh however, uh that doesn't always just get left in the room. You will uh see them on the sports field, you'll see them down shops, you will um your kids go to school together. There's there's a uh a lot of um time outside of that that community where you where you will have to interact in a in an appropriate way. And I think that has a measure of accountability inside of it because you're you're not just seen for that professional role, you're not just seen for that that the way you're contributing inside of that community. There's a there's a greater picture, and and a community kind of to me involves all of that. It doesn't just segregate a uh professional persona to a personal persona, it's it's all-encompassing for everybody. And so I think those standards that you're setting for yourself inside of a professional community still have to uphold outside in in a personal. That's kind of my take on it.

SPEAKER_01 3:43

Yeah. Yeah, I love it. Um, and I think we'll go deeper into some of these concepts in just a moment. Um, what I'm fascinated by is uh when did you kind of learn and how did you learn that this was an important value for you?

SPEAKER_00 3:54

Through through through business, so when going into our own kind of brand values and identifying, you know, what what are the values for for us and Keo, and we did that as a as a community. We involved ourselves, our staff, but also our customers. Um, and and one of these kind of underlying um but consistent themes was just around this again, it's an accountability to something other than ourselves. And we so it wasn't really a way of the only way you could really describe that was through through community. The descriptors we have and you know, we're invested for good was kind of the way we could we could frame it. And and then underlying that was a you know, even if we don't win, it was always give that right advice. And so the lead for that, what what was in our kind of mind's eye, collective mind's eye, communal mind eye, was who is that reporting to? Who's that responsibility and value important to? And and that was being led by that accountability to a community, which was so it wasn't until you know through through owning a business and and having to articulate it and think about it and consider it that I realized that. And even just chatting about it now, it it sort of the deeper it goes. However, I think it's something that begins at as a young age, and uh you again people are drawn to to who you are, who you are more than more than what you do. And they so you you build a community of of like-minded people and like-minded spirits around that. So I yeah, it's it's it's through the business that it's it's kind of come to light, but it's throughout a history of of ourselves that it's yeah, been developed.

SPEAKER_01 5:35

I do find this is uh I find running a business is one of the top two kind of personal growth experiences. It really puts you to the metal completely. Like parenting and running a business between the it really tests your character, like I I find it really tests your character, but it also really tests your values, it tests what's important to you. So I'm not surprised that the pressure cooker of business is the thing that made you kind of reflect to go, what what are the things important to me? Because I think I think it is one of those things, and parenting's the other one where it's like helping what actually matters, like what is important.

SPEAKER_00 6:10

Absolutely right. Actually, that's that's interesting too, because I I feel uh when I when I talk about community, uh I picture my father a lot as well. He um contributed uh a great deal to um uh the sporting community, uh the uh he was uh part of Rotary. Um he was always involved in uh our school, our um, you know, uh as a contributor into the greater the greater good, you know, making sure that that things ran the way they needed to and and just being there and part of it in a in a selfless way. Um yeah, that's that's uh another kind of little little thing that springs to mind. Yeah. And so as a parent, you you you think, okay, I need to, you know, we mirror that behavior or how how are we showing up?

SPEAKER_01 7:01

Yeah, it is. I I'd like and it's it's um so many times a recurring theme from um some of the previous guests has been like the the the environment you grew up in, the values your parent had. It shapes your values and it it can it can shape it in a in a positive way where you can like I really gravitate towards that value now. And sometimes it the other way where you like you it repels people and they kind of go the other way. It's it's just it's quite interesting to hear when you talk about your father, or like how much it was an investment in the community. And I I I guess you've kind of taken uh a lot of that on yourself as well. Definitely, yeah. Yeah. Um, so I I guess I'd like to unpack this a little bit more about this definition. And and I would be interested in your take in terms of like what then so this phrase community is used a lot. You've talked about kind of accountability effort, people working towards this common, common goal as being uh characteristics to you of community. What is not community?

SPEAKER_00 7:55

Great question. When I think when when it's framed as a win-loss, when someone has to lose, uh someone has to miss out. And that's not I I don't mean that in the way that you know we kumbaya, you know, ever every everyone. But it's more that attitude you go in with as I'm going to win. I'm going to this is this is uh uh central to a person rather than uh uh objective. And I think it's kind of that intention, it's the intention was learning around uh learning about influence and reading uh uh around tactics and you know how to win friends influence people. It wasn't that, but it was it was influence. And the one of the key questions or one of the things that was in in my mind was you know, this is this is quite close to manipulation. What is the difference between influence and manipulation? And and I think it's intent. It's what is the intention to influence, what is the intention to manipulate? And in terms of you would use the same tactics, as far as I could see, it's the same tactics applied. But influence is for a greater outcome, a win-win. Whereas I think manipulation is a win-loss, it's uh for me to have what I want, regardless of what happens. Whereas the so I uh to me, that is what community isn't. It's not a focus on it's ill intent. It's we're not we're not building something together here. This isn't collaborative. We're not, I don't really care about your input. And regardless what it is, I'll I'll I have an intent here that means I must win.

SPEAKER_01 9:40

It's uh so interesting. So you've got you've got in almost like you're a bad actor, you kind of go got in, you've got your own goals and objectives, and it goes away from what you're saying, which is it's about the greater greater good. Yeah, yeah, and that's what community is.

SPEAKER_00 9:53

Community service is the greater good. It leaves things better than nothing. I don't know. It it it um you know, it's it's always it's got a bigger picture, community, and because it involves it involves more. But I felt our communities really shrank through COVID. That was where the intent and the the community was just uh this spirit of and and we were kind of allowed to. I I don't want to turn it into a rant, but I think we were we were it we were enabled to actually just get look very small thinking and we have to protect, which is terrifying. We have to protect ourselves and and what's most important to us, and it lost a lot of that community spirit, that sense of giving. And I I saw a lot of behavior in that win-loss, you know, that behavior of I need to do this, people doing in the shops over toilet paper or a roast chuk, you know.

SPEAKER_01 10:49

Yeah, it's uh whichever way it manifested, it's uh I mean that particular example is interesting as well because you we know from a psychological perspective perspective, as soon as there's uncertainty, there's ambiguity, people enter a threat state, and it's like a threat state, we're kind of like we shrink, our thinking shrinks. It's like so it's so interesting the way you've observed that thinking shrinks, is it it's shrinking by people not being community focused, being very independently focused. And it comes out then in weird ways, like be it hoarding toilet paper, which you know it seems bizarre on the surface. Like, why are people doing that? But it's such a representation of anti-community behaviors. It's like that's not for the greater good. Yes, you're not looking out for everyone making sure they just yeah, no, you're trying to get all the toilet paper for yourself, and it's like Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:30

Even the the uh hand sanitizer, people who are uh hoarding that and then and selling it for nothing, and they're stuck with it. Like it's uh people having to police it.

SPEAKER_01 11:40

Well, that's anti-community behavior, anti-community, and it's interesting as well because I I think you know, on one hand, and I I often will have this conversation, on one hand you look at that and go, someone was being entrepreneurial, they spotted an opportunity to make money, but I'm like, but I think there's more to running a business than just making money. And I think this is where the values led stuff comes in. And like some people are, that's all they're focused on. Okay, as long as you're not being unethical or immoral, make your make your money. But I don't just want to make money like that. And I think you know, I guess that's the same for you as well. It's like that's an opportunity, but it's anti-community, so I'm not gonna go down that path. I'm not gonna build a business like that.

SPEAKER_00 12:18

It's not win-win, you know, and that's that's the real point there is there would have been cases where if yes, there's an entrepreneur spirit, there's an opportunity here, but how does this feed a greater good rather than just shrink into how do I make mozzas off this? Yes. What's the need? And the only need there was, you know, in this example, was that a profit for for them.

SPEAKER_01 12:41

Yeah. And I think that's where it's so interesting when you kind of lead a business with your values more in mind, how you operate, the types of decisions you make, um, the types of decisions you feel good about and not um I think having that understanding of your values and then it's part of it. We know running, there's other factors. We need to run a profitable business, and sometimes you've got to make decisions that are not as values aligned as you like, but on the whole, you're using it as part of your guiding light.

SPEAKER_00 13:06

Your values are the you know, uh very cliche, but they are the fundamental, they're the foundations of everything you you build upon. Yeah. Clear or not, you know, and and I think the small businesses as well, because we're small, they're easier to lead because you don't necessarily have to articulate them. You can just show by example, and they kind of they naturally happen and occur, and you you kind of naturally put it out there with your messaging because you have a direct connection with your with your customers or audience. But as businesses grow and they and they do uh expand, that that value space gets lost, you know. It's uh from the founder, it it dilutes through staff and partners and suppliers and the org chart.

SPEAKER_01 13:51

Yeah. And I and I think it's it is interesting. You watch like I don't know, I think this is the the interplay between like a individual founder values versus organizational values. I I what I observe is a lot of a lot of businesses, once they're kind of like they're let's say they're sub-20, sub-30, it is very founder spirit-led. So the values of the business often are a manifestation of the founder's values. They might not be the same, but they're a manifestation of. But as the business grows bigger, uh you know, I work with mid-sized businesses, 100 plus, but once you get to that hundred plus mark, the values serve a slightly different purpose. It's not just about capturing the founder's essence. That might be a lot of it for a lot of businesses. We want to bottle the lightning and like you know, capture it and articulate it. But for other organizations, well, no, now we're making changes and so our culture needs to look different to what it was at sub 100. And so our values function differently. Um I think it's a it there's an interesting interplay there between individual values, like early stage business values, and then mid-stage and as the business evolves and grows. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So, from this perspective, of obviously something you're very passionate about, it's a value you hold true to your heart, close to your heart. How do you go about infusing that into you your day-to-day life? What are what are what are the things you're doing to keep community front of mind?

SPEAKER_00 15:10

Yeah, it's a really, I think, of this uh in a way of if it's a true value, if it's true value, it's something that just happens, it just occurs, it's a it's a natural thing. It's and and you know, as we were talking before, I didn't have an articulation for it. It just it just appeared. Yeah. So I can't the way how I would describe it is I can't help but help. I get I and I get into so much outside of family and and work life that it creates a a friction in in the other two, you know, where are you really going and setting up a barbecue to feed to to feed the guys at the harness racing club? Like things, things that, you know, uh my my daughter's water polo, you see I it's when it's the way it shows up for me is when you're at at events at uh any any moments in time, you kind of have a lens of of uh I don't want to call it a a greater good doesn't make sense, but it's it's you have a an empathy um of the situation. Uh it'll show up as you you kind of have a lens that is there an opportunity here where I can I can help. It might be just a symptom of of boredom, not not wanting to just sit there and and um wait for your daughter's sport to start. It's like, oh come on, what what can I do to keep myself busy? I don't I don't have a good articulation of it, but the way it it presents is informing people if you can see an opportunity for to improve or to help or to connect. You've got a problem here, I can't help, but I'll connect you with this person. And there's no uh there's no desire to uh have something out of that, get anything out of that. There it is just purely to connect and you know community will be better for that.

SPEAKER_01 17:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:08

Specifics uh, you know, from Tamworth working to to improve our professional retention. So uh attract professionals and and retain them, keep them here so that we don't have issues with our healthcare, we don't have issues with our teachers, we don't have issues with a university that's um soon to be building. Just putting time into efforts around helping people connect and stay and remain. Um it's helping frame conversations with my children when things get hard. There are there is a there is a a bigger thing at play, you know. What this is, yes, it is very big to you, and I'm not disregarding that at all, but let's let's also try and work to frame it in a in a big picture, and um, you know, it in that scheme of things, it might not feel so bad. I think that's how it shows up, and it's a it's a great way to in just terms of community activity as well, in the in the actual kind of practical sense of the word, it's a great way to um build friendships and chat with people and um because it's outside of the stuff of what you do. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:14

There's a there's a lot of interesting things there. I uh the first point I'd like to kind of explore a little bit more, you know, when you I always said we like it's we've got these values, sometimes we understand they exist, sometimes we we don't have a as good an articulation of them, um, but they're there. And when we know they're there, we ought to in order to live them, sometimes we need to make trade-offs for other things. And I imagine I just picking up on one of the things you said earlier, it sounds like one of the trade-offs for community, there's only a a limited amount of time you've got. So you that time, I guess to invest back into community, you put a lot of effort into almost everything. Everything you're describing there sounds like it's a lot of effort and it's a lot of time. So I guess time is your finite resource that you're you're trading off. How do you, I mean, how do you is it a conscious thing you do to make like decisions around I like I need to spend more time on community here or not? How do you kind of go about managing some of those friction points that might come up? Yeah, that's a great question. It depends who you ask.

SPEAKER_00 19:10

It would depend who you ask. I'll stop asking you. Um poorly. So I might if I have committed to actually it's reminding me of a um conversation I heard last night with my wife, because we've got there's a few things coming up that I might I don't know why I do this, but I have, and so I was but what I might balance there is if it's on a weekend, then I can take the kids. And if so, for example, we have the university does a a has medical students coming in for the year for uh four and fifth year students. I'll uh Rotary Club does a barbecue, it helps introduce them to some locals, and we can connect and point them to some things they might be interested in. That's an opportunity on a Saturday morning where uh I can I reckon I can do keep the wife happy by getting the kids out of the house. I can keep the kids happy by giving them a bacon and egg roll, and I can I can fulfil that community uh commitment as well. But it also the kids will see some good happening there and and and again a bigger picture. Yeah. So that's kind of how I how I would balance it and and help with that. And it does it does kind of breed into them. I can see how my kids are growing into this this bigger picture world and and into that community, seeing that there's opportunities to help, which is always quite nice. Outside of, you know, they're they're only young or 13 and 11, then you know it's not a money-making thing. Um so uh they just enjoy it. Yeah, and and so yeah, that's a that's a kind of a really specific way of of balancing over commitment.

SPEAKER_01 20:57

It's uh I I think it's interesting for two angles. They're the first thing is you you said you know you'd signed up to all of these things, you don't know why you do it, but I think we do know because it's like you've got such this innate community focus. I can imagine you just any opportunities to help, you're just like, yep, I I'll just do it, and I'll just figure out how to make it work later. The first answer is yes, I'll help. Then we'll figure out how do we kind of integrate everything. And I think it connects so nicely to you then talking also about your how your father was so community focused and how you've that's instilled in you. And now you're instilling that value in your children as well by getting them involved. I think it's such a nice uh the value to pass down, it's uh and the way you Yeah, it's I think it's an important one.

SPEAKER_00 21:34

Yeah, it it is an important one. Again, it's uh it's the work of of community that keeps things running. It's it's the quiet work that happens behind the scenes. My daughter's water polo. It's the quiet work of those that are willing to turn up 45 minutes earlier to set it up. It's yeah, and it's those who are waiting, you know, 40 degree heat we've had here, and it's those willing to stay. Throughout it and then pack it up at the end that that allow these experiences to happen. And we can extrapolate that out across every sporting club. We can we can extrapolate that across every organization. Every every moment there is that opportunity. Um and the challenge, I think, is also inside a business to think of it. How is it providing a community? How does it support our community, not geographically necessarily, but just in the way of giving and leaving better and contributing as a win-win? How does this work for those we're going to interact with?

SPEAKER_01 22:34

I think that's uh you've used that phrase a couple of times, but how do we leave it better than we've found it when we when we got it? And I think just applying that to the business lens is so interesting. I think how do we how do we leave the business world or our local business community or the industry we're working in, how do we leave that better than we found it?

SPEAKER_00 22:53

And I don't I don't you know I I I don't want it to sound kumbayar because it's it's just it's more just while we're unpacking this, I think that's the that's the that's what's happening as we move through it.

SPEAKER_01 23:04

It's uh it yeah. I think it's interesting as well because some of the what I talk about when I talk about purpose particularly, I often say, look, purpose is a combination of a lot of different things, partly it's values, partly it's your strengths, but it's all the way I like people to articulate purpose is around the impact you're having on someone else. It's in service of someone, a group or a person. And actually, I my belief is you can have many different purposes. Like whatever the plural is. Is it purpie? You got many purpose. I don't know. You don't know. I guess that's the weirdest word I've ever heard. Purpie. I don't think it can't be purpose. We've got many that we served, and it looks slightly different. So my purpose with my family is different, you know, my purpose with my gaming mates. There'll be a commonality there, there'll be things to draw up, but it's always in service of something else. So I look at the purpose as the external thing. Who why do we do what we do for others? Like, what's the thing there? Um, so some a lot of what you're saying is resonating around it. I don't think it's kumbaya. It's like, well, there's there's things beyond just us that we want to have a positive impact on. And so I think a lot of this is about articulating what that what that is.

SPEAKER_00 24:16

Yeah, it's uh it's it's curious to me how much, like just through through this half hour, how that kind of realization uh at its core, where it where it expands out into your your business values and shows up in your experiences as well, like the the experiences you want to have for customers and clients and people you interact with inside of that space. Because obviously business, personal, community is all linked, but it's it's through you that that you see them and that connection. But often in your mind, you know, you don't you don't have them connected.

SPEAKER_01 24:48

No.

SPEAKER_00 24:48

So that's that's been really interesting. Yeah, yeah. Thinking through it.

SPEAKER_01 24:52

I think it is. It is. There's there's this uh yeah, there is these connective tissues across all these domains. And we sometimes forget that. And I I do I personally obviously doing this, I believe it's very useful to understand that lens and how it applies to those uh different domains, especially for uh you know uh business owners and founders and people running their own thing, because I think it it kind of the things become intertwined quite a lot. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so on that note, I guess it's a you know, um, I think we've dive deep into community, but you also run an amazing business, Keo, and this phrase it give voice to feeling. So tell me more about this voice to feeling concept, and tell me more about what you do at Keo and why you love it.

SPEAKER_00 25:34

Oh, sure. Um voice to feelings that comes from a acknowledgement, I suppose, or or an uncovering of when when we have those interactions with with people, when we have experiences, they leave us with a feeling. And experiences are made up of, I suppose we experience things through all our senses. Um and we go into a business and you know, it's it's the way the door handle feels, it's the music, it's the it's the uh how we're greeted, um, what's brought us there, so the the the touch points of advertising and marketing and all those kind of things. Um and as we grow, uh I think we've talked about that earlier, but like as we grow, um the consistency dilutes, you know. Are we are we still clear? Are we do we still have that consistency? Um, and and are we being persistent with with everything we're trying to explain? The feeling of a business, particularly as it's small and growing, happens naturally and therefore hasn't had any reason to be articulated or or into um some kind something that makes sense. So uh voice the feeling for Keo uh is a deep dive, it's an uncovery into what is it about the business that makes this this feeling and then how do we capture that in a look and a sound and a feel through the through the brand's identity and through the brand's marketing and advertising and the messaging and the culture and the people and the experiences that we're gonna have. And we take that and we we set an expectation of the business and what that brand, what what your customers and clients and people can expect from that brand that gives voice to that feeling. The important thing there is collaborating with the business to then ensure that the experience matches. And so, in a nutshell, through our brand advisory, our brand strategy, and our customer and activation, that's that's key.

SPEAKER_01 27:25

I love it. I like there's so much uh neat stuff in there, but I think just that really trying to just capture the uh magic of what makes that that business great. So it's it's uh captured and you can then deliver it consistently. I think is so so important. Yeah, so many fronts.

SPEAKER_00 27:40

That's really important.

SPEAKER_01 27:41

Thank you so much for coming on today to dive deeper into community. I've loved the love the chat. I love all our chats always, so it's good to it's good to record one and uh get out to the wide world.

SPEAKER_00 27:51

Absolutely. Yeah, no, it's a pleasure. Thank you very much for having me. It's um incredibly interesting. Yeah. Thank you so much. Really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 27:58

Thanks for your stuff. So yeah.