SPEAKER_00 0:00

And welcome to the Values Lab, a podcast series for founders and portfolio career professionals seeking inspiration and ideas to live a values-led life. And today I'm delighted to have Rui, the firecracker with purpose, on the show today, to talk about the value of courage. And I think it's fascinating that Rui has chosen the value of courage. Um, for anyone that follows Rui on the various uh social media platforms, I find uh Rui does such a good job of challenging social norms and the status quo in such a kind of eloquent and articulate way. And I so I think um I'm sure that's underpinned by this value of courage a lot. But um, I'm looking forward to unpacking her views on courage and more today. And do Ruby.

SPEAKER_02 0:43

I'm doing so great, and thank you for that very generous and kind introduction. I'm so excited to be in this conversation with you.

SPEAKER_00 0:50

No, I love that. I love seeing some of your points of view. Uh well the one that resonated with me a lot is um when you were ch challenging the commercialization of wellness culture. I think you did a yeah, an awesome um you've done some awesome work in that space, and I think it's uh yeah, fascinating to read. It's uh cute. Always prompts me to challenge my thinking around some of this stuff, so it's great. So it's awesome to have you on.

SPEAKER_02 1:13

Yeah, that's great feedback. If I can make someone think in a new way, that's kind of like that's my job done.

SPEAKER_00 1:19

Well, you've done it with me, so that's good. And so you've picked this value of courage, and I guess a place I always like to start is these words have different meanings for different people, and I'd love to know what do you mean by courage when you've obviously picked it as a value.

SPEAKER_02 1:33

Yeah, and before doing this podcast, it was an amazing exercise in reflection because you know, um we being friends, we're very values-aligned people and we live by our values. And for me, it's a non-negotiable, it's something that I've reflected on for such a huge part of my life around what my values are, and for me to live into them is a no-brainer, it comes by default. So when reflecting on the values that I have and what courage means to me, it is kind of my main value because all of my other core values resonate and tie in with courage. So I think for me, courage means many, many things. It's uh the courage to be seen, to be heard. And there's a book that a lot of people are talking about these days, um, Courage to be disliked, which is, you know, you don't need to be a people pleaser and all of that. But on the other side of the spectrum, I also explore in reflection of what is the courage to be liked. Because it's often very confronting to be seen, to be heard. And as a storyteller, as a facilitator, I love sharing and hearing very personal stories which shape the way we think, we operate, and we learn and relearn many things. And I think it takes courage to do all of those things. So for me, it's the courage to speak up even when my voice shakes. It's the courage to be the only to do something, to do something for the first time, to speak up when I feel like something's wrong, which is in underpinned by my core values of equity and justice. And it's also like the courage to be wrong. I think it's very easy to be right because it makes us feel good. But how many times are we willing to lean in and actually, you know what? I got that wrong and have the courage to do that. And I think courage means so many things, and it looks so different for different people, but then also looks different for me every single day.

SPEAKER_00 3:43

Yeah. I know that what one of the other things one of the things I often talk about is when we pick these values, some people just stop at the word and like you can't just stop at the word because there's so much underneath that word, and I love you you've just explored so many different facets of of courage, and um it's it it's really amazing. I know I love one of the things I love asking as well was when was the last time you changed your mind? Because it is, I think the courage to be wrong and to change our mind is is so important. So you've unpacked lots of different uh facets of what courage looks like there, and I liked what you ended with as well, which is that it kind of looks different every day depending on what the day throws at us, it will require something different from courage for us.

SPEAKER_02 4:18

Absolutely, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:20

And and so obviously lots of different patterns here, and you've thought a lot about this um concept. I mean, what when did you first start realizing that this was something important to you?

SPEAKER_02 4:32

Honestly, I feel like I haven't known anything different. And it could be, I guess, my personality, it could be nature and nurture. Uh, I'm the youngest of three siblings, so uh, you know, house in-house rebel. And I've always been like kind of a very curious child. Uh, the the challenging the hundred questions of like why is something the way it is, um, just out of curiosity. And as I grow older, the value just cements. And I've always been that person that challenges, okay, why is why are certain things done the way they are? And it's fine, but me genuinely being curious and curiosity being one of my core values, I feel like it's always been one of the threads that has kind of shown up multiple times, especially through the very main events in my life. And I see that showing up over and over again. One of the most, I guess, biggest examples being uh launching a business and going full-time with a business. It's that courage to leave a very comfortable, stable job with an international company that I had been with for years and take the leap and have the courage to be faced by the question: who am I outside a paycheck? Who am I outside a nine to five? And that was very confronting. So I think it has shown up throughout my life. I've always been that challenger, and I I guess I get I get told that by my loved ones as well. So it kind of reaffirms that that yeah, I do live into my value the best I can when I can.

SPEAKER_00 6:16

That's so interesting, and talking to many people about where their values like where they've come from, some people can identify a specific moment. And it sounds like in your case, it's just this, it's been this ever ever present since you're since you're younger. It's funny you say I've got three kids. Um the younger one is determined. I'd say courage is probably one of his values too. So I I'm I I wonder if Berthought had some kind of impact on.

SPEAKER_02 6:40

Yeah, the older siblings kind of like beat it in you.

SPEAKER_00 6:42

Yeah, that's it.

SPEAKER_02 6:43

You kind of have to be you will be courageous.

SPEAKER_00 6:46

You have no choice. No choice at all.

SPEAKER_01 6:50

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 6:51

But it's a it's a you feel like it's something you kind of had forever. You can't remember a time where courage wasn't an important quality for you.

SPEAKER_02 6:59

I can remember when it's been challenged. I can remember moments where I've intentionally had to make decisions or had conversations that I'm like, this feels scary as hell, but it's something that I just have to do or need to do or want to do. Um, so I can remember moments where the tipping point of courage has showed up, but there's never like, okay, now courage is my core value. I feel like it has always been there and I've had to harness it. It has also been challenged on multiple times, you know, when I guess, and I want to talk about like the opposite of courage is more than fear, it's hopelessness and it's ignorance. And I feel like being faced with those things when there's very deep fear, um that is when it has also been challenged. There are moments when I've not been able to live into my core value of courage, and it is deeply, deeply um hurtful to not be able to do that. But then I I intentionally use those moments in my life as teachings to myself that I will work to the best of my ability to be able to create a life and design a life for myself that I can live those values. It's like you know, yours is independence and freedom. And I heard Bridget's episode on independence, and it was so beautiful to be able to have those complementary values, but then freedom being, you know, it look again looks different for different people, and the freedom to have, let's say, enough money to quit your nine to five job that also would take courage, you know.

SPEAKER_00 8:46

I I totally I think you know that that pivotal point of taking the leap and starting a business, you're just going into the unknown. And uh I joke, my wife, I don't think she likes the joke very much, but I I think running a business and like learning how to parrot, I think they're both equally learning. You can see why she doesn't like comparison.

SPEAKER_02 9:07

I can only speak to one.

SPEAKER_00 9:09

They're both really are. But it is you're kind of thrown in, and it's like um there is not really any playbook for either of those things. There's a lot of ambiguity, every kid's different, every business is different, and you've kind of got to figure things out. But it is, it takes a lot of like, hey, I'm just gonna step into the unknown, and it takes a lot of it does take a lot of courage. And I know I I I imagine a lot of people that listen to this podcast will be in a position where they're either they've done their own thing, they've taken the leap, or they're thinking about doing it, and you know, and I guess I'll be interested, Expo, because you mentioned it a few times now that this is where that one one of those moments that required courage. Like, how did you harness courage in that leap? Were there certain things you did or certain things you said to yourself to kind of help make that leap from a very comfortable situation to a totally unknown situation?

SPEAKER_02 9:54

Yeah, that's a good question. And I think when we think of courage, right, we often think of it as like you know, the hero's journey. There's music playing, and there's like this hero figure covered in like glowing light and all of these things, and that's what happened.

SPEAKER_00 10:12

Well, I'm racing.

SPEAKER_02 10:15

Oh my god. Oh my gosh. And like I'm sure everyone can relate to this moment where you know you're being courageous, you know you're doing the thing that you need to do and you must do, and all of these things. But in that moment, it almost feels like this is so bad. This is the one of the hardest experiences I've ever been through. And I think we don't talk about that enough. It's before you know you get the recognition, the visibility, the accolades. Before that, it's the storm, it's the clouds and how we weather those clouds. And courage is being able to sit with that and being able to use, I guess, practices for me personally. So I'm a yoga teacher. I um finished my studies, so I did my bachelor's in business management and marketing, um, studied psychology as well because I found it super interesting. And then I trained to become a yoga teacher. So I've been teaching for about 13, 14 years now, and that was one of the best investments I ever made in myself because that solidified in me the philosophy that aligns so well with my core values. So for me, it's leaning into those concepts and the yoga philosophy. And we often don't think of yoga as being, you know, philosophical or theoretical. However, it's 90% that 10% is your downward dogs and and poses. Uh, and again, that feeds into that whole uh westernization and um commercialization of well-being. We'll maybe do another episode on that. But it's about leaning into those philosophies when times get hard. And one of my most favorite Yoga Sutras, a part of it, speaks to these three concepts. They call tapas, swadhyay, and ishwa Pranidhan. So when things are hard or things get challenging or confronting, tapas speaks to your inner forbearance, your inner fire, your inner persistence. It's keep going. You know it's hard, but you have to keep going. The second one is swadhy. It's the self-awareness and self-knowledge of knowing when to push and knowing when to persist, but also knowing when to quit. I've persisted so many things, but I've also quit so many things. And it's knowing through inherent knowledge of yourself and being able to emotionally regulate yourself through that discovery of what feels good, what is aligned with my values, to be able to make those decisions. And then the last one is Ishwapranidhan, which means surrendering to a higher reality. It's being able to accept when you know things that are not in your control. We talk about that all the time in leadership, in all of these things. So I think I have had the privilege to have had access to these very advanced yoga philosophies at a very young age, and being able to lean into those at times when I have had to, you know, be scared and do it anyway, or speak up even if my voice shakes and make some really difficult decisions and have hard conversations. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:47

I love it. I love when you've almost had uh the value of courage at a young age, but I love when that collides with some work, body of knowledge, philosophy theory that kind of make it helps organize all those thoughts and helps everything make sense. You know, and I've I've had those moments similar to you studied psychology where I've learned theories and that's like lines up so perfectly with something I've had here but never had the language to articulate. And it's I mean you going through the concepts there, that was like incredible listening to it and how it connects to some of the things you were talking about earlier as well. But in there, yeah, so it's that's when the music plays. Yeah, then it's like but it is I think those moments are so transformative where things like values align with so many other other things together, and you like all of a sudden you could see the world differently. It's like absolutely yeah, it's almost like the matrix mode, you know, it's like 100%, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:39

And you know, sometimes it it is one of those like unlocks where it unlocks in a microsecond and it's almost like a revelation, but then also sometimes it is it takes so hard to get there, and it's like okay, you feel like you're not making progress, you know, but then suddenly it kind of slots in and then it makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 15:01

It's amazing. And so it sounds like you draw you, I mean, in making that leap to starting your business, you you you drew on a lot of different sources of um strength and courage, well, things to help you show courage in the face of you know difficulties. I like you mentioned the fact that it's not this often this big thing, it's often actually the courage is to the business, it's just the little things that you do every day and they'll sometimes culminate in you having to make these big courageous things, which people see, but there's a lot of invisible work which goes into it. Um I guess what I'm really curious to know is uh there's two things I really want to explore. One is then how you kind of embed this value of courage into your day-to-day. So you you mentioned yoga. I'm I'm sure there's other things you do to instill this value, value of courage into in your day-to-day life. So I'd love to kind of understand more around how you do that.

SPEAKER_02 15:53

Yeah, I think, like I said, you know, it looks different day-to-day as someone who lives with endometriosis, it's a chronic illness that affects one in seven women. And I want to share this because you know, we're kind of beyond awareness, and next month is endometriosis awareness day and month. But I think with that, and then running a business, it's having the courage to have compassion with yourself on days when things are really hard and I'm in potentially a lot of pain, and being able to hold that compassion for myself. And I think we spoke briefly about that yesterday. But then also it's yeah, like courage to show up on my mat, you know, on days when I really don't want to, but I know it's going to be good for me. That takes courage. It takes courage to move on to the next weight up in my strength class because I know it's gonna be scary, but it's gonna be worth it, and it's kind of tying into what is the bigger vision or the purpose behind that, you know, because I think again, through naivety and through experiences, I've learned that courage without a purpose or action is just noise. And yeah, I've been like, oh yeah, I'll pick this fight because you know, uh, I'm just like, I want to be on my like moral high horse or whatever it is. But no, that's not always the most uh productive thing to do or the most focused thing to do. So for me, it's about looking at the bigger vision. What is the future that I want to create? What is the future that I want to build? And in that, working backwards of every day, in it's in the workshops I design, it's in the keynotes that I facilitate. Um, I will challenge my clients, and that's why they love me. I don't get my clients um coming back to me or tapping me on the shoulder because, you know, I'm there to appease. No, I will speak my mind, and that's my kind of brand. And I actually am so grateful that uh I'm appreciated for that skill. Um, and then for me, I think a big practice is journaling and writing. Uh, I love being able to process my thoughts in words. I absolutely love writing. Um, I could write for six months if I could. Um and it really helps me ground in thoughts, feelings, and again, those ideas. When I started Allied Collective, I always knew I wanted to do something. I was very entrepreneurial, but I didn't know what. And then using my, I guess, background of psychology of business, and then um I led a lot of facilitation for uh a retail business globally and got to facilitate uh DEI training uh for senior leaders globally across the world, and that that kind of made me lean into my love for training and facilitation. Um, you know, I'd been teaching yoga for the longest time, but this was kind of a way to kind of channel that skill and that um that experience. And I was like, everyone's talking about inclusion, and people were just starting to talk about well-being in 2020, you know, because it was starting to get trendy. But I'm like, no one's talking about both, no one's talking about inclusive well-being. The world has not been designed equitably for people to be well, and what well-being means for people also differs, and what access to well-being and wellness also differs so much. Um, and that kind of uh ref that reflection kind of prompted my framework of the 10 dimensions of well-being, which I use now in my workshops and with my clients, but that is kind of like it's a process, and it takes every day, little bits every day to be able to bring that into um my daily life, and it's you know, small and big things, it's like having the hard conversation with clients, with friends, with anyone. Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:50

Yeah, it's interesting. I like where you started as well with this, where you like you you've almost got to pick your battles as well, because you could, you know. And I've had this really I one of my strongest fan is it's fun and I overdo it, and it's kind of like, you know, is it possible to overdo courage? Do you have to pick? Because it takes a little, I imagine it takes a little bit, even though it's core value, it still takes energy. It's like if you're kind of picking every every battle or fighting every battle, um, it can deplete from energy. So I like kind of your how you frame that up as you've got to pick your battle by focusing on the on the bigger picture and what the bigger picture bigger picture is. And then I like also how you were talking there about like it's one of the core reasons your clients come to you. And I think it's one of the things I often talk to founders about is like if you really lean into your values, that's how you can create a point of difference in your business. Um yeah, similarly for me, I mentioned fun. I mean I've leaned into that, and that's helped me create distinctiveness. It makes not every founder values fun. So if I kind of lean into those things that make me different, if you lean into those things that make you different, and you do it in a way which is still focused on what the clients are trying to achieve, it creates this real, I think, nice uh uniqueness about how you offer things. So I I guess I'd like to drill down on that a bit because uh you mentioned something that the clients do come for you for. Like uh tell me a little bit about how you've infused courage into your like way of working with clients, into your service offering. Like, how have you gone about instilling that value into the business? I guess.

SPEAKER_02 21:13

Yeah, um, I remember sorry. I'm gonna take a sip of water. I remember being at a networking event and was telling someone what I do, and they were a bit older, and they responded, they looked at me as like, that's very brave. I'm like, I will choose to take that as a compliment. I think by the virtue of what I do and the space that I am in, and the intersection of that, itself takes courage. Because I don't think there are many people speaking at this intersection of well being, inclusion, and leadership. Where these conversations around, okay, we're talking about burnout, we're talking about workplace well-being, but have you considered that your leaders might have different needs for what well-being looks like? And burnout again looks so different for everyone. And just speaking of, you know, gender differences, burnout shows up so differently in different people. And we don't pay enough attention that it's not a one size fits all. And it's important to put processes in place where we have the agency and the kind of emotional intelligence to not only recognize what it means for us, but also the people around us. So for the leaders, not only being able to emotionally regulate themselves, because you know, we hear horror stories of people, leaders who aren't able to emotionally regulate and thus end up throwing laptops at their employees because they lack emotional regulation. We are looking at a very rapid decline of critical thinking because you know we're outsourcing our thinking. And I'm not an a technology or AI hater, but I do think that it's these skills where we stop, we lean into these soft skills. I don't like that term, but these skills of emotional intelligence, emotional regulation, and not outsource our thinking. Um, and having those qualities of self-awareness and self-knowledge, but then also being able to utilize that to help be a better leader, and that's the facilit that's the facilitation of a better future. And that's why the tagline of Allied Collective is facilitating a better future.

SPEAKER_00 23:47

Yeah, I love it. And I guess one thing I'd be interested in your thoughts on, because this is um I I know this is a challenge lots of founders face, is that they want to move it, like they kind of realize that the in order for the work to have impact, it needs to be either more strategic or more systemic. Um but often clients come in, they want to check the box. And I'm I'm not I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on if it's something you experienced as well. Around hey, can we just run a workshop on you know managing your own well being, like a two-hour lunch and learn? But we kind of know that that's not the stuff that's going to really ultimately change the uh change things. So is that something you kind of face and like what what have you done to show courage in those situations to help kind of push push clients? Because it sounds like you do a good job of challenging clients and getting them to think differently. So is it what what approach do you take in these situations where it's like hey, how do how do we level up the work we're doing by showing courage um to drive better impact and better futures? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:45

Yeah, look, um, with any core value, and you know, as all founders would realize and know this, you are not for everyone. And that's so okay. So, firstly, it's grounding in that you are not going to be for everyone. Yes, you can find your niche, yes, you can be a generalist as well, but you won't be palatable and you shouldn't be to everyone, right? Because that's how you attract your people.

SPEAKER_00 25:07

I said you said courage to be disliked.

SPEAKER_02 25:10

Absolutely, absolutely. And I think there's something right if you are being challenged and everyone doesn't like you. Uh so in that, I I guess again, I've been very lucky because because I am so visible and vocal and out there with my values and my views and challenging the status quo, like you mentioned, um, I have clients reach out to me. So uh I've been very lucky in that space. So they already know when they talk to me what they're in for or kind of have an idea.

SPEAKER_01 25:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:39

In terms of that challenge of, you know, let's fix it in 90 minutes or two hours or three hours or one day. I'm like, look, yes, it is very common. It is a very, especially for facilitators and workshop um people who deliver workshops, it's a very common problem. Within that, I will try my best to put forward a case where this is not a once in like, you know, wave a wand and fix the thing. So in that, I'll explain how the process works, I'll explain my explain my methodology, I'll explain the value. In that, most of the time, the clients get it and then we kind of proceed. However, there are some genuine constraints, you know, when it comes to budget, when it comes to timeline, strategy, all of those things. Within that, my job is to take the resources I have and the time that I have to make such a powerful shift, even if it's one new way of thinking that I can challenge someone. For example, um, I we delivered a workshop for Nike, which was incredible. And as you know, Nike has some very strong high performers. And we talked about the performance paradox being like the nature of the need to perform at 100% all the time will be the cause that you don't perform at a hundred percent. And that's when we break it down into performance zones and so on. So that framework was a very, I guess, big tipping point for many leaders in the room. And this is where it's quality over quantity. We are not expecting to fix everything in those three hours or six hours. It's about challenging the way we think, the courage to be wrong. And that's one of my, I guess, uh uh agreements when we start a workshop. You know, we set agreements at the beginning. This is one of those of it's okay to challenge yourself and it's okay to be wrong.

SPEAKER_00 27:36

Yeah. I I guess on that one of be wrong. This is I I'd be interested in your on your approach to to this. It's like how do you you know, you're faced with the situation, you might be wrong. Like, I think this is um work that a lot of people are trying to do is be more open-minded. Like, what approach do you take to instilling that courage to be wrong? How do you kind of how do you process that? How do you do that when when faced with the scenario? Well, maybe it's something you've held a strong belief about and it's being challenged, but all of a sudden you're like, oh, maybe there is another way. What's your way of processing these situations? I think it's something that's very needed now, but I know a lot of people that I talk to are trying to work on this uh quality as well.

SPEAKER_02 28:16

Yeah, and again, it do it's so dependent on the situation, right? So first and foremost, we speak about psychological safety, right? It's n and again when we talk of you know, this is a safe space. I'm a believer that no one can guarantee a safe space for someone. And when we're presented with a concept or a belief that has been contradictory to ours, especially one that is very long held, it can be like a threat mode for the brain and the body. We go into fight, flight, freeze, and here's where emotional regulation comes into play. So it's a bit of science, there's a bit of psychology where you recognize that I am getting defensive because this is happening in my body. So it's a awareness. B, it's again, like you said earlier, picking your fights. Is this the hill I'm willing to die on? And and the last one is is giving space. I think we don't take enough time and space to come back and actually reflect, think, and be like, okay, let me think about this and get back to you. There's been a number of times where I've like gone back and be like, you know what, I got this wrong. Let me let me fix that. And you are not going to be respected if more respected if you just are right all the time. You're going to be more respected if you admit, hey, I got this wrong, and that's okay. And we see that in leadership all the time. Uh, leadership who own up to their mistakes, who take accountability, are far more likely to succeed. And we see that day in and day out. So it is about regulating yourself. It's about recognizing and having awareness of these are the places that I go to when I feel defensive, when I'm being challenged, when I feel threatened. And what can I do or what practices can I have in my toolkit as a leader to create that safe space for myself? And again, this is that wisdom of, you know, that mind-body connection where we are seeing more evidence of, you know, dancing, for example, to shake the nerves out. Because it can actually make a difference in our mental state. And it's being able to recognize, okay, here's how I can make um a safe space in my brain to be able to process those emotions. There's nothing wrong with being wrong.

SPEAKER_00 30:45

And for you, so you personally, can you think about a moment recently as well where you've kind of gone, I I've had to go through this process myself. And yeah, I'd I'd love to hear the pro the what you did and how you went went through it.

SPEAKER_02 30:56

Yeah, look, um the most recent one would have to be a conversation with my husband that got pretty fiery. And and yeah, because you know, you're in it, and I guess the partner is you the one you feel safest with. So you're like just you know, brains off. You unleash, you're like just like, I'm just gonna no filter, and then this, and then okay, you go back, and then you think about it, and there's text exchanges of like, okay, here's what happened to me, here's what was going on for me, and this is how I felt, and this was unfair to you because I wanted this. It's usually impatience for me because I want things done like right now. So I'm like, look, that showed up for me, and that was not okay, let's talk. So that was probably the most recent example.

SPEAKER_00 31:46

It's it's this concept uh I was actually sharing with you just yesterday's hey, uh, Dr. Becky actually talks about this concept of repair, it's so important. Like we're gonna make mistakes, we're gonna stuff up, but actually quickly going in and repairing and just going, look, you know, it is more it's different to an apology. It's kind of I think uh I think it's repairing the whatever was done. Kind of going in, yes, I reacted wrongly, it was wrong to go in with that. Let's kind of figure out a way to move forward. So I I like it's a good thing to again. I I think these are things that we a lot of people they kind of want to do these types of things more. They want want to get better at regulating the emotions, they want to become better at admitting when they're wrong. And um so it's great to hear these examples kind of like I think it is it doesn't have to be super complicated either, like in a situation like you just described. You can just extend the olive branch out, do it quickly, and yeah, things can move forward.

SPEAKER_01 32:36

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 32:38

Amazing. Well, so you've you've talked a little bit about as we've gone through about the work you do with Allied Collective, but I'd love to kind of hand over to you to talk a little bit uh more specifically about what what are some of the things you do, what do you love love working on? Um so the mic is over to you. Open mic, uh tell us more.

SPEAKER_02 32:54

Oh, thank you. Um so Allied Collective is Australia's first inclusive facilitation and well-being practice. So we bring together these pillars of leadership, inclusion, and well-being in a way that is engaging, it's fun, it challenges people in the best way, and it facilitates a better future for everyone. And that means not selling utopia, but it actually means we're here for the love of learning. As someone who absolutely loves learning for the sake of learning something new, I get excited when I'm challenged or when I uh learn a different way of doing things, and especially when we connect to seemingly unrelated concepts, right? Like inclusion and well-being or well-being and leadership. And although you might find parallels, you know, I guess in theory, what does that look like in practice? And this is what I love doing. It's sorry, I love facilitating unboring workshops, uh, and I like making it fun, just like you. And I love watching people have aha moments and take away things that they know that they're going to implement. So I think again, with knowledge and awareness, you can have all the awareness and knowledge in the world, but it's not useful if we're not implementing that with accountability. So that's where we wrap it with that final bow of what does this look like in practice and what does that look like in real life and accountability? Uh, for example, in our well-being reset workshop, we look at goals and vision and purpose through the well-being lens of what are your well-being goals? Uh, how are they in or out of alignment with your values? And how is it that you're going to have them show up in your day-to-day and hold yourself accountable? And I think it's a beautiful thing to be able to have these conversations. I pinch myself every day that I get to call this work and to be able to be in rooms where I'm not just sharing what I'm learning or teaching, because um I teach at university as well, and it's incredible to be in rooms with from 20-year-olds to like you know, 70 plus year olds, to be able to learn, and that is a privilege, and that's what I love doing. So I'm here for the love of learning, for the love of teaching and sharing what I know, and that's what our Lied Collective does.

SPEAKER_00 35:23

Amazing. Well, it's been awesome to have you on the show. It's been great to hear your ideas around courage and and and some uh related concepts as well. And I look forward to chatting. We'll chat very soon.

SPEAKER_02 35:35

Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me, and thank you for doing the work that you do. I think you have been one of um the most inspiring founders for me in my founder journey, and I really look up to you. So thank you.

SPEAKER_00 35:48

Uh, thank you. What a very nice note to end on. Thank you so much. Take care, we'll talk soon.

SPEAKER_02 35:54

Bye.