SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome to the Values Lab, a podcast series for founders, portfolio career professionals seeking ideas and inspiration for living a values-led life. And today I'm delighted to have on the show DePak. And DPAC is on a mission to create great experiences for our business and community through great experiences for our people. And DPAC is going to be talking about the value of kindness. I was very excited to get him on the on the show today. So I've met Deepak a number of times. And I remember we'd actually been following each other on LinkedIn and we happened to sit next to each other at a conference we were both attending. And I was really uh I've been struck by DPAC's kindness in general through the content and the the causes he supports for and ad advocates for and the way he uh writes has a very kind tone through it. But I also experienced this in person for the first hand when we happened to sit next to each other for the first time. The other reason I was really excited to get Deepak onto the show is that um from observing all the different things that Deepak does, I'm really like fascinated by how he jigs all these things together, in particular with kindness in mind. I I kind of see it from the outside, and I'm just I was just really curious to get under the bonnet and hear more. So welcome to the show, Deepak. How are you doing?

SPEAKER_00 1:11

I'm really well. Thanks for having me. Um firstly, maybe I should change my topic to be able to better accept praise. Um maybe that's that's another topic. Um but yeah, not to go down a different tangent, but no, thank you for having me here. Um, as you said, my name's Deepak. Um, pronouns are he-him. I'm living on Warrenjiri land, I'm a migrant. Um, I try to be a very present and active parent. Um, and in this sort of world of work, I'm the founder of Mission Rhythm, also just sing out, and the co-founder of People Stack. And my work, I think, is simply around helping teams better build workplaces by solving problems through people. I didn't even know that that made sense. I should try that again. It does. I love it. That I think you you nailed it with that mission you said before. All my work centers around that mission of great experiences for our business and community through great experiences for our people. I love it.

SPEAKER_02 2:06

And I'm I'm looking forward to I'm sure all the different things you're involved in will come up in this conversation when we talk about kindness because I think I think um they all bring a different lens to this value. But I guess a great place to start would be kindness. I mean, I've got I've got my understanding of what it means. What does it mean to you?

SPEAKER_00 2:22

Um simply kindness is not softness. It the way I describe it is it's clarity with care. Um, for example, you know, telling the truth without humiliation, um, holding standards without ego. Um, it's recognizing, I guess, that every business this decision lands on a really real human nervous system. Um, so for me, in in especially in leadership, kindness means um asking questions like what's the most humane way to do this? Um, even when it's hard, or actually especially when it's hard. Um just simply it's not about being liked. Um, it's about reducing unnecessary harm while still moving the business forward. And that includes to yourself as well.

SPEAKER_02 3:08

Wow. I mean, it's so much already to dive into that. Uh when you were talking, it reminded me, I don't know if you've ever seen the comedy show The Good Place. Um, I have. I have. Yeah, it reminded me of that because there's it's not just an easy thing to do, you know. We've actually there's so many different things we've got to weigh up. But it's one of the reasons I love the show. It had a very nuanced exploration, this topic of what does it mean to be good, and and similarly your description of what does it mean to be kind. There's a lot to lot to weigh up there. Um when did you discover this was something that was important to you?

SPEAKER_00 3:40

I've always been nice, you know, nice talking marks. Um and I've felt that, you know, especially early in your career, you're sort of told, you know, you can't be that nice, you've got to be a lot harder, you've got to and it was a huge sort of, you know, do I have to be this? Do I have to be that? So you try and you pull different ways. And it's always about trying to be something else or someone else's idea of leadership. So it came back to starting to recognize and realize and lean into who I am, and how do I make kindness a skill? And, you know, empathy, compassion, which are all part of it, um, even laughter. How do you bring that in into what you're doing and make it a strength? And then seeing some great examples out there that know you don't have to be this, you know, typical A-type, alpha, male, whatever it is. Um, you can be something else and still get great outcomes. And that helped me lean into who I am and sort of discover who I am.

SPEAKER_02 4:38

Yeah, so interesting. And so a few times now you've said it's like there's a difference between being nice and soft versus being kind. So, do you mind talking me through a little bit more about this uh this distinction? And do you have got maybe got some maybe examples? You mentioned, you know, there's uh this typical A-type alpha male, and it's not that. So talk talk to me about the the I guess it sounds like it's a bit of a spectrum. Um that's what it sounded like to me.

SPEAKER_00 5:02

I think it's a good way of putting it. I probably should have thought about this definition of the separation beforehand. But kindness doesn't mean not making the hard decision, it doesn't mean not being clear. Sometimes it is delivering something that's quite tough. But it's doing it, as I said, with empathy, doing it with compassion. It's about asking questions. Um it's that point I sort of said before. It's that truth without humiliation or holding standards without ego. They're the thing. So you can sometimes being nice isn't always telling the truth. Um, I saw something, it might have been some TV show or something like that. It is talking about kindness and a lot of northern European cultures, they can be very kind but not be nice. And that's that's something that really landed with me, that they can be one and the same, but they can be quite separate as well. It's about delivering what you need to do and doing what's right, um, but doing it in the in the most humane way possible.

SPEAKER_02 6:03

And so you you strike me as someone that's very thoughtful. So I imagine that you you've probably encountered situations where you're deciding, do I tell some of the truth or do I tell them the thing they need to hear? I mean, what are some of the things you're kind of weighing up to decide what is the kind of more kind and humane, humane path?

SPEAKER_00 6:20

It's it's it's like firstly, I believe in radical transparency, and radical probably shouldn't be there. Transparency is really important, the why we're doing it, and sometimes that means a tough decision and being transparent about that. But at the same time, it doesn't mean telling everyone everything, especially in the workplace. So sometimes you have some decisions made at a very senior level, and yes, you should not necessarily say trickle's not the right word, but share that message across the team, that why. But you can't always give them every reason why. But there has to be truth in it. So I think without trying to digress too much, I think it is about most simply transparency and honesty and giving that why. And sometimes that how and that what and that all of that comes into, but it's really important. And sometimes, especially with hard decisions or you know, decisions that sometimes lead to you know, change or job loss or things like that. That why is really important.

unknown 7:15

Great.

SPEAKER_02 7:15

So it sounds like you know, when you're trying to make that decision, it's like what level of transparency do people need. I I uh totally see where you're coming from as well. It's not about always sharing everything, but it's almost I guess the kind thing to do is determine what level of information do people need. Yeah. How can we communicate the why and use our judgment to be honest and empathetic at the same time?

SPEAKER_00 7:36

I think what just came to mind is the way I sort of what I found has helped me, especially in the work, or just in life, really, if I think of what I do throughout life and rituals at home or work or whatever else, like kindness is not vibes. It it actually needs structure. So you can still make a decision and do something and be kind about it, but add some structure. Actually think about how this is going to land, what is the purpose of this, um, what is going to be the effect of this? All those things matter to help you deliver that decision and it actually preps. So it's not just trying to do good by someone else, you're actually doing good by yourself by preparing um and organizing yourself to deliver something in the best way possible.

SPEAKER_02 8:18

Yeah. I love it. So on that theme of structure, then I I guess I'd be keen to hear how do you embed this value of kindness into like your your let if we start with your maybe your day-to-day life, and then I think I'm interested to explore how you've embedded it into your various aspects of your career and business as well.

SPEAKER_00 8:34

Okay, so if I start like personal life, I guess. My personal life revolves a lot along family, and maybe because I've got two youngish children that most of my time goes there, and I'm glad for that, and that's really important to me. So I think really simply one of the things we do is around those rituals. So um for us when we are at home together, dinner together is an as a family is a non-negotiable. Like my kids aren't at a stage of having a device yet, but um making sure your TV's off and things like that. And part of having dinner together, we all ask each other, what are you most proud of? What you was the hardest part of your day, how we helped someone. Um, and my kids are six and eight, and they don't always answer, or they don't, you know, they don't bother sometimes. Yeah. But we make it a ritual, um, and it's really important. Really important as well, it's naming our m our emotions out loud. Um, and this is something I'm really working on from a personal point of view. Generally, I'm quite introverted and I'm working hard not to build up silent tension. So if something is not right, trying to say, hey, I'm feeling this or this made me feel this way. Um, and that's something I'm working on in that sharing part. But also um repair quickly. So for example, if I snap, which I often do with two young kids, I own it, I apologize. Um, it's really important to show the right behaviour. So from a personal life, but also like you know, with friends, with family, with people I care about, just take time to stop and listen. But if something, especially when things go right, or even when they don't, celebrate it loudly. Yes, we stuffed up, but we tried, so celebrate that loudly. I think that's really important. Um I think that's from a personal point of view, the biggest things. I love it.

SPEAKER_02 10:24

I love um I love that first question, even the one you ask is how did you help someone else today? Because that's got so much kindness loaded in it. So I think um one of the things I uh it's come up a few times in talking to parents is instilling values in your kids. And I think even just what kind of questions do you ask at the dinner table, I think helps instill those those values, you know. How was your day? Just changing the tone of that to how did you help someone? Yeah, I think that just helps bring kindness to the surface. I think that's it.

SPEAKER_00 10:51

And it's hard sometimes, even for myself. How did I help someone when I was working for myself and I didn't catch up with it, or things like this? It can be hard, and sometimes it's reminding and guiding that out of people. Like, um, sometimes it's as simple as a health door open. Yeah. Someone.

SPEAKER_02 11:06

So um and I think kids have such a nice way of uh distilling down some of these complex concepts. It's quite simple behavior sometimes. I've really liked I like those kinds of questions. Uh and the examples they share and the stories they share are very uh even that sometimes there's small acts of generosity or kindness, but it's just you could see the impact that would have had in a in a school environment, which is uh awesome to hear.

SPEAKER_00 11:28

Mind you, that example of holding a door open, my daughter Daisy said that. And before she, we had to sort of help her um get to a stage where she could say, Oh yeah, I did that. She when I did ask her what did you do to help someone today, her first reaction is I didn't feel like helping anyone today, Dad. And also at the same time, if that's is what happened, that's okay as well. Yeah. That's probably being kind to yourself sometimes as well, that you're putting yourself first, and for whatever reason, um you decided to do that, do that.

SPEAKER_02 11:56

Totally, we're not always that uh in our a game state, and it's like, yeah, sometimes it's like we we don't feel like doing these things, and it's uh yeah. Um that self-compassion and self-kindness is uh is really important. Um I like you mentioned the concept of repair as well. I uh I don't do you know Dr. Becky? No. Oh, you've uh you've I have to check out Dr. Becky. She's my one of my favourite child psychologists. Uh she's on Instagram a lot and she does um she talks about this concept of of repair. Um and it's it's a really powerful, I think it's such a powerful one as well. It's like stuff is gonna happen, we're gonna stuff up, but how can we quickly show kindness and repair those relationships rather than letting it fester and uh fester and simmer?

SPEAKER_00 12:37

It's an important one, especially, you know, not to overly generalize. As men, we are as a whole really bad at, you know, when we've stuffed up going, oh shit, my bad. Um and this is what you know, and apologizing for it and genuinely apologizing for it. So if I can model those behaviours, especially with my son, um hopefully, you know, it it leads to a bit of snowball. So I think that that point about repair and owning and apologizing is is a really important one.

SPEAKER_02 13:06

Oh totally. I think I've got most of my son's nine, um, and it's just like it it the emotions just keep escalating and it gets it gets very um uh because I'm quite competitive, so I'm sure that comes through deep down. It's like it's uh and it's not a competition against my son, and I don't need to be right and win everything. So it's like just notice the point where it's getting too far and then repair and de-escalate the situation. Yeah, um, I found to be so it so good and it feels so much better than uh you know, letting it as I say I think you said the word festa. Yeah, letting it festa.

SPEAKER_00 13:37

And that's it, it is a learning process, as you sort of mentioned as well. Like I don't get it right a lot of the time, and I stuff up, and sometimes my partner will she'll look at me and just like raise her eyebrows and just like, okay, I know, yes. And I have to pull it back, especially with kids, like it is easy to get emotionally hijacked. Like, you know, I'd like to think I'm um emotionally quite competent, but at the same time, you know, my children really show me that I'm very far from it at times.

SPEAKER_02 14:03

Oh, so you've got a they've got a special way of pushing those buttons there and they enjoy it.

SPEAKER_00 14:09

Um so um it is all learning, and you know, I think that's that that point about that repair and apologizing and owning it is a really important one because just in life, we don't get it right often, and that's okay.

SPEAKER_02 14:22

No, actually, something my partner and I do is when we realise that our buttons are getting pushed, it's I think again, through kindness, just stepping in and tag teaming in and going, uh, like both ways around, you know. I can I I know when my wife is at the breaking point where the kids are really pushing it, and it's just like, hey, let me come in and like it's just alleviate the situation because it's like it I think showing kindness to each other and kind of we're on the same team and helping each other out when we know and she knows that with me as well. Once I start raising my voice, I don't raise my voice often, but once I start raising it, she knows that he's getting annoyed now. Right, I better come in and just like um de-escalate the situation.

SPEAKER_00 14:58

I keep coming back to the de-escalate because I think that's as far as relationship goals go, that is probably for me personally one of the highest ones I've noticed with my partner and I, when we can see that and we make this great team. And yes, by the end of it, we're both sort of frazzled and we can't maybe reflect on at the time, but to be able to look back and go, hey, we were able to recognize when each other needed a help, we stepped in for each other, no judgment, and we just sort of and then at the same time when I sort of started going this way, she came in, and it's it's yeah, for as far as relationship goals go, um, I've noticed that in my relationship, and that's one of the proudest moments for me.

SPEAKER_02 15:38

It's so nice, isn't it? It's it's it's it's interesting when you come in, it's so because you're not coming in from that heightened state, you can kind of come in calmly, and same when my partner comes in, she's calm, and it's all of a sudden you notice an immediate difference like to the responsiveness the kids have to these situations. So I think it's uh it's pretty fascinating. Um, so I guess that that's I think it's uh I mean I I think this is one we could talk about all day, is that that kindness piece with kids. But I'm interested to know in terms of how you've integrated this value into the various streams of your business and your career. So I think this is one of the things I'm fascinated by is that you've got a lot of things going on. They do seem to have this connective thread. I see from the outside that kind of seems like a connective tissue. I'm sure there's other things that are there. So I'd love to know more about how do you how have you imparted kindness or infused kindness into the various things that you're doing?

SPEAKER_00 16:29

I think without sounding selfish, it's about putting me first. Yeah. Um, we have to do that. Just in generally speaking, put ourselves first, but also taking time to reflect. You know, often, especially when you're busy, it's so go, go, go that we forget to reflect not just on what, but well, what didn't. So I block out weekly reflection time. What decisions did I make? Um, do they align with who I say I am? Could I do something differently? What actually would I should I keep repeating? Just that moment to not it's not always a gratitude piece, but just to reflect and also have some gratitude in there, but also see what I could do better does help me. Um that reflection one.

SPEAKER_02 17:12

Sorry, sorry, curious to know about that, because I'm sure you've identified times through that reflection. I'm a really big believer. I like that you've separated gratitude and reflection out because I think that I also agree they're they're different practices. Have you then identified times where you've gone looked back at the week and gone, ah, I probably was not kind in that situation or it didn't do that well? And yeah, I mean, I know you've talked about repair, but is there anything else you've kind of done when you've noticed that maybe you haven't lived up to this value? Um Yeah, sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 17:38

And then even it that might be overtime. Like we've all got ego. Um, let's not pretend we don't. And sometimes I've looked back and almost been, you know, 12 months later to go, oh look, if I think about that piece of work, it probably didn't land the way I do. And I've just sent a message to the person I work with and just said, Hey, you know, glad I did this piece with you. Um looking back probably didn't land the way we needed to. Um just thanks for the opportunity. And if you're ever opened for a chat, open to it. It's not to try and drum up more business, but it's uh ownership again. So I do look back and there's often Well, that could be over 12, like after 12 months, you've gone back and gone out, actually.

SPEAKER_02 18:16

Something's clicked for me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:18

And and look, like sometimes it starts off with ego, like, oh, you know, that relationship didn't work because of this. Yeah. Um, and then as maybe ego subsides a little bit, you realise, okay, yes, there's truth there, but there's, you know, just because there's one truth doesn't mean there's other true truths. So also realizing, hey, you know, there's a few p things at play here, including myself. What can I take ownership of? I can't take ownership of someone else's behavior or expectations, but I can take ownership of mine. So sometimes I will go back and just sort of say, hey, you know, this is what I took from it. Thanks for the opportunity. Um, and that it's also good learning for me. And once again, it helps me to um be a bit more organized and structured in my reflection. So as I said, to the point, you know, kindness isn't vibes, it's it needs structure, so does reflection as well. Um, and especially it's important we take action from it. You know, all well and good to reflect, but if we don't do anything about it, you know, it's just vibes in the end.

SPEAKER_02 19:18

I love it. It's like, yeah, so there's a there's that point around here, we need to kind of we we make these observations, we notice these patterns, let's kind of act on it to help take things in a in a different direction. Have you do you often hear back from that message? Or sometimes. Sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 19:32

And you know, a few times people have come back to me and it's created, you know, this is all this is not about a pitch or sales or anything like that, but it has created more work. Hey, say yes, yep, we recognise that. But that said, um, you've also acknowledged where your strengths are.

SPEAKER_02 19:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:48

I've got this piece of work. Can you help me with this? Or can we just have a chat? So um part of that was going back to say, look, one example recently was that, hey, I know we agreed to do this. This probably didn't play to my strengths. Um, this is where I should be working or should have offered the support. Um, and that's also created focus. Hey, DPAC is good, but maybe it wasn't good at that. Yeah. And maybe early, especially in the consulting career, like the first things you do is just almost say yes to everything. And then when you look back, you're like, hang on, I've got out of traditional work to not to not have to do these things that I hate. And yet I've signed up three projects to do the things I hate most. Um, hang on, I've got to rebalance this and be kind to myself. Um, so it's all part of that journey, I think.

SPEAKER_02 20:36

It is. Look, I almost said the first year is almost like you do say yes to everything for for multiple reasons, but sometimes it is you gotta you gotta learn what you like and don't like as well. I think that's such a big part of it. It's just say yes to lots. But then there's always the revenue pressure, it's like you just gotta bring stuff in. So you just gotta say yes to things and just like figure it out. And I think that is that it is the process, especially the first year. It's like I always remember vividly my first year. It's like, well, okay, I can't do half those things again. They're just not my either strength or preference, or it's just like um not my best way of operating. So it's yeah, yeah. I think that's uh it is an interesting process, but then being kind to yourself as well. I like this lens that you're bringing in, which is kindness to others, but also to yourself too.

SPEAKER_00 21:17

It's uh yeah, it's it's an important lens around plural plurality. Um, I can't even say the word, but there's more than one truth. And you know, almost to that question you said, how do I bring kindness into my work? That's a really important decision filter. Like, for example, is it commercially sound, but also is it humanely sound? Um where's that intersection? And that's where I need to focus on, and that's me. Um, how do we win on all fronts? Um, you don't have to, it doesn't necessarily have to be one or the other. Um, and that's a really important piece for me, Cardinus, is that decision filter and realizing that there's more than one truth.

SPEAKER_02 21:55

Yeah. And talk to me a bit more about that decision filter because I think this is something I often talk about is your value should be. Decision filter, yet we often don't use them actively in that way. Can you talk to me about how let's say you get this project opportunity come your way? Like how are you weighing up this valve uh value of kindness in the mix? How do you kind of tangibly go about doing that?

SPEAKER_00 22:14

Well, I think maybe a good example is whether fortunately or unfortunately, a lot of the work I do sometimes is around um downsizing and sometimes exiting people, whether through some sort of a clash or some sort of scale up or scale-down process. So I think if I take that as an example and dealing with individuals, kindness doesn't mean necess doesn't necessarily mean keeping people, but it does mean really being really clear early. Um if you're going through a process, it's not about assassinating character, it's not about dragging things out, you know, to avoid comfort or discomfort or just to be nice. Um and it also does mean at the same time protecting the wider team from ongoing harm and uncertainty. So knowing that, that's how I approach it to say, okay, if we if this is what needs to be done, this is my suggestion on the best way to do it, and this is why. And for me to deliver that in the best way possible, yes, it might take a bit of iterations and alignment that everyone's on the same page, but it also has to be true that am I doing this the right way? Can I hand on heart walk away and go, that was done the best way possible? But also can people hopefully one day look back and go, you know, that was shit, but it was it was done as best as possible. Yeah. You know, it's a breakup. And the way I put it, breakups are shit, but they don't have to be bad.

SPEAKER_01 23:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:42

Um, and so you know, hopefully, you know, some of us had those relationships where you look back on and go, yep, you know, it's unfortunate we broke up, but it is actually the right thing.

SPEAKER_02 23:50

Yeah, and it was done in the right way. And I it must be heartbreaking for you because we they I mean, I'm sure you see all the stories of the way some of these layup mass layoffs are done. It's I mean, they're done in a very unkind, unkind way. It must be horrific if you'd see all these stories of layoffs being managed so so poorly.

SPEAKER_00 24:07

And then yeah, it is, and you know, I think especially in the last week as well, there's just been so much news where um, you know, and I know by the time this this episode comes out, it'll won't be last week's news, but you know, in the recently there's been a wise tech, there's block, there's all these large numbers of people being laid off. Um and I'm not commenting on how they did that, but it is very common in today's world. And once again, um, we can do this in a way that if it is a business decision and it is the right decision for the future of this business, then f so be it. But we can do it in the right way. But also um think about how we do it as well. Like I've worked in places where it's been this sort of trick where we'll do a little bit here, then six months later, a little bit there, and we forget about the leftover effect and lingering effect of the people that are still in the business. And that's really important. If we're doing this, you know, it yes, it does uh affect those people most directly affected by it immediately, and most important, they're the ones most, but there's also people left in the business, and there's a huge amount of scar tissue. So if we're not, once again, being transparent, um why? And also being clear that this is what it is, this is what it should mean for the future, and how we deal with that emotion or deal with that trauma and help us get over it is a really important part of this whole process. And once again, kindness has a really important role to play, not just in delivering that decision, but but picking people up from it.

SPEAKER_02 25:37

Yeah. I love it. I love how that's that lens, especially you described how can we do it with that lens in mind. These things are gonna happen, breakups are gonna happen, various transformations and shifts are going to happen, which will impact the workforce. But how do we do it with the lens of kindness as well? I think we often forget that when we're talking about uh people leaving. We kind of forget our values and just um I think it's really sad. Because it is, it's a it's a tough thing for people, really tough thing for people to go through. Yeah. Um now you've obviously got a few different things that you do, and I'm I I'm always curious because I guess this is a you know, founders, portfolio career people, we're like trying to go, okay, we probably have a few things we want to get involved with. Um how do you determine then whether you pick a new thing up or not? And then how do you infuse this value of kindness into any new things you pick up? And feel I feel free to talk to some of the things you're doing here as well, because I think you're doing some interesting stuff.

SPEAKER_00 26:25

Okay, well, maybe I might sort of talk to what I do, just to give that context, and then explain how I bring that together and what that means. So um, most simply I work across three key lanes. So I've got my a business called Mission and Rhythms, which is most simply fractional chief people officer style support for um leaders and executive teams who want us their culture to scale with performance. Yeah. Um, so your traditional sort of a more consulting style work. Um, I'm also a co-founder of a a program called People Stack, which is an accelerator for those early stage teams to build, I guess, those their people ops foundations before chaos sets in. And there for those teams that don't have an in-house HR talent function, how do you get by in the meantime and a bit go a bit beyond getting by and create great experiences? And then lastly, I've just launched a solution called Justing Out. Um, and that's coaching for individuals navigating those tough workplace situations before they need to escalate it legally. So, what I call it is pre-legal workplace coaching. Um but most simply they're different entry points, but it's all around that same through line and that mission, you know, we both mentioned before, great experiences for our business and community through great experiences of our people for our people. So, yes, it might seem like I'm doing a lot, but it's all part of the same story. Yeah. Um, so it doesn't feel like different pieces of work. It's like in any workplace or any piece of work we get, we work with on different projects at the same time, or with different clients at the same time. This is much of the same to overly simplify it, but this is much of the same. It's all the same work, but just slightly different through lines.

SPEAKER_02 28:08

And I'd be interested then. So you've you've obviously you mentioned this uh just sing out is the newer one, is that right? Um, what was the process you went to to determine whether this is something you kind of pursue or not? And uh again, if there's anything to do with the the value side of things, I'd be curious to know, because again, it sounds like that's a consistent, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:24

Um so I've always done your traditional HR work, most simply.

SPEAKER_01 28:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:29

But I've always had some sort of little piece of work or advice being given around people going through these tough situations, whether it's a formal process or they've been unfairly dismissed or whatever else, and needing some advice. And either they're not ready for a lawyer or they're not at that or they don't need one yet. Um I'm not trying to pretend to be legal counsel or anything like that. It's more of a coach. Um, and having got run a lot of these processes on both sides and been on either side of this process, I kind of know how the process works. So just to explain, this is what it is, this is what it isn't, this is how you approach it. Um and more recently, I've been getting more and more people come to me. Can you help me with this? I'm stuck. And to be most honest, I love the work. I absolutely love this work, and provides so much um self-gratification. Um and it helps people have the confidence to approach it in the best way possible. It's not telling them you're right or wrong, it's more just to just this is the situation, this is how you approach in the best way and look after yourself. And that's what most of it is. This is how you look after yourself through this process, um, so you can pick yourself up the best way possible afterwards or through it.

SPEAKER_02 29:43

It's amazing. I I particularly like hearing you talk about people stacking just sing out, because I imagine when you go in through mission and rhythm, you're embodying this value of kindness in the work that you do. But the other two, it seems like you're almost like helping people to do these kinds of things in a kinder way. It's like because I I know I've seen, you know, when uh someone hasn't got the specialization, they try and fumble through it, and it it doesn't end up being a good or kind experience for anyone involved. But I imagine the way you're doing it is kind of your your people will end up working with you and they'll end up delivering these um experiences in a much kinder way.

SPEAKER_00 30:16

That's that's definitely the aim. Um and at the same time, I'm working it out as I go. Like I'm not pretty here trying to say, you know, here I've got it all worked out, this is perfect, this is the you know, I'm that portfolio guy or whatever it is. Um I am trying to work it out. And over time, you know, it might mean putting more weight this way or that way, but it also gives me a few options, and that's actually a strength. Um, we know what job markets are like today, we know what things are like. You know, we were just saying I've just finished a contract with an with um another employer, and parts of it I loved, parts of it I didn't. But at the same time, having the option over my own thing actually really evened out that relationship and put me in a position to say, hey, this is what's important to me. Um and this is what I can't align with. So let's make a decision to make it work for both of us, and you can approach it in a really genuine, kind way.

SPEAKER_02 31:12

I love it. I love it. Thank you so much, DPAP, for coming onto the show. I think it's been an amazing exploration of of kindness. And I've I like that we've touched on, you know, both the kind of parenting side, the business side. Um, I think I said this on a previous episode, and I'm sure my wife doesn't like this, but I I find raising children and running a business are equally steep learning curves. And they've got a lot of similarities amongst them. So I'd like the exploration of how one of your values can kind of bridge across uh both domains.

SPEAKER_00 31:39

Well, you know, nothing in life is separate. No like we try to create separations, yes, but nothing in life is separate. So if we can carry some of those good things across those both portions of our life, we're just making our lives easier. So yeah, um, yeah. I love it.

SPEAKER_02 31:55

Thank you so much. Thanks for coming on the show and uh for generously sharing your insights. I really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00 31:59

Amazing. Thanks for this, Varen, and thanks everyone.

SPEAKER_02 32:02

Thank you.