unknown 0:01

All right.

SPEAKER_02 0:02

Welcome to the Values Lab, a podcast series for founders, portfolio career professionals looking to seek inspiration and ideas for living a values-led life. And today on the show, very lucky to have Adam Axon. And Adam Axon is on a mission to restore humanity to work. And Adam has chosen to speak about the value of humility today. And I think what's interesting is I've known Adam about 14, 15 months, and uh we first met, we caught up, and uh 14, 15 months ago, we had we had a very long coffee. It was a great conversation. But what struck me since then is I I find Adam to be one of the most supportive people I have ever met. It's uh it's it's quite ridiculous for someone I met over a coffee once. How supportive Adam has been towards uh me and the business and and the things I'd I do. It's been uh yeah, quite overwhelming. And so when I saw Adam had picked the value of humility, it kind of makes sense. I think to be that supportive of someone, you've got to be someone that values suppressing the ego to a certain extent. So I'm really look forward to unpacking this concept of humility with you, Adam. Welcome to the show. Thank you, mate.

SPEAKER_01 1:07

Very, very kind words. Um Yeah, I mean, that like uh literally everything you just said then is like how I feel about you and what you've how you've been with me. From like literally being like, hey mate, I haven't heard from you for a while. Like, is everything okay? Like, yeah, it's yeah, it's restoring humanity. Or even even that phrase, I think, is in part like down to like, you know, um what I've learned from you. So yeah, lovely to be a part of this.

SPEAKER_02 1:30

Ah, thank you. And very, very kind words uh from you as well. Thank you very much. Um and this concept of humility, I mean it immediately we see, I think you can sense it from the way you're talking about humility, I think, oozes from you. Um I'd love to start with what that word means to you. You've obviously picked the word, it's an important value for you. What does it actually mean to you?

SPEAKER_01 1:48

And yeah, it's it's it's a it's a sort of a new thing. I probably haven't really kind of necessarily like had that in mind for a long time. Not saying that I've, you know, had been like a jerk, ego-driven monster until that, but uh I was just thinking about like, you know, how I've run, you know, kind of my business, you know, kind of like what I've learned through the uh kind of uh, you know, various roles I've had within organizations, um, and what were kind of, you know, how I've matured, I think, as a as a kind of a person. And humility was the kind of the word that came up. Uh and there's probably two elements to it. Like one is around uh learning uh kind of how to meet the moment um in any given circumstance. Uh, I think the classic example here is like you're in a room, someone asks a question or shares something, and you have a thing off in your brain to say, hey, I can contribute here. Um, and you just then immediately contribute. Um uh as opposed to thinking, hey, is this my moment to contribute? Or actually, is there other people in the room that could offer something, or should I sit back and just, you know, kind of learn? So the sort of a recognition of the that like I don't always need to be like, you know, the hero. Um, I mean, we're both into, you know, kind of like video games and board games and those type of things. I think it's one part of it is definitely like how to learn to like accept and make peace with the fact that like you're probably not the main character in the story of humanity. Um and that's actually okay. Um and you know, that's something that I definitely think I was that wasn't a thing in my early uh, you know, kind of careers. And uh and then, you know, from that, what that uh uh enables is also for the first time I think in my life over the last like year or so, really starting to kind of like tap into learning how to stay true to like what is enough. Like when I don't, when I when all of a sudden I don't need to be the hero who's like saving the day or saving the world, or you know, and I can just simply be like, you know, what is enough for me, what is enough for me and my wife, um, what is enough in this particular like you know, client engagement. Um and that, you know, like what that is unlocked for me in terms of like uh self-compassion, um, uh balance, like all these things that like I'm like, yeah, but I don't know how to do that, that concept of like really learning to be just okay with what's enough. I think, yeah, that it all comes from that sense of like humility of of yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:34

I love it. There's so much there. Um I think the first bit I'd like to pick up on is uh like a question that constantly comes up in this space is like once you've got your values, do they stay the same or do they change as you evolve and and uh and get older? And I love that in your instance it sounds like it's something that probably was there or maybe was dormant or not as as strong, but as you've grown into different roles and in age, it's become to the more I guess it's uh at the forefront now, and it uh sounds like it underpins quite a lot of your um outlook to uh to business and uh life as well, which I think is quite uh quite amazing. Um and then I I I I think with the even with that particular concept you're talking about, and then you know, not being the hero, and I think that's such an interesting thing as well, because often uh especially the spaces we're in without people coming outside into an organization, the tendency can be, hey, here I am to uh help resolve and and fix issues, but um this value helps kind of manage and mitigate that. So I think it's such an interesting uh outlook you provide. Uh you mentioned it's something kind of more recent. How did you kind of discover that this was this was the thing? What what kind of yeah, um process did you have to figure out this is the important I think probably through multiple cycles of burnout.

SPEAKER_00 5:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:55

Um, if I'm being honest, like um of just you know, not knowing how to set boundaries. Um like if I I maybe go back a little bit more. Um and so you know, like my motivations around uh, you know, kind of like work and the job that I did and like having an impact. Um, you know, like again, without going too much into it, like I I had had got some uh you know, had some bullying experiences during school. And so school was never necessarily a place like where I felt like valued or that I my the way I contributed was valued by my peers. Like I was act quite academic, but you know, life of um high schools, especially growing up in Geelong, like that, that doesn't really, you know, kind of like get you acceptance with peers. And then all of a sudden you go into the workplace and uh people are recognizing and applauding the kind of like diligence and results and like, you know, and the care and investment to to doing a job well. Um and I think, you know, given I was coming into that from a position of like, you know, uh insecurity and vulnerability and uh all of the things that you know kind of got triggered for me um during those bullying experiences, the work became addictive in like and and the validation, the chasing the validation, the need to like get results, um, the need to, you know, kind of be the hero, if you will, around like, yep, but don't worry, I've got it. And you know, there were experiences that I look back on now. Uh even before I started my professional career, like working in supermarkets. I once got like, you know, kind of I my role was like managing the uh perishals departments or like the dairy and the freezer sections. And I got bought into a store that had um sort of like was struggling to like have all that work. Um and like I came into that team and I literally took every single responsibility off everyone and just did it all myself.

SPEAKER_00 7:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:53

Um, and the department like ran kind of like well, but I was like working crazy hours and like no one in my team was learning. Like, you know, it was just like they were just like here, do this, unpack shelves. And um, and I remember that at that stage, uh, one of the area managers came and was like, look, everything looks great, but I'm interested in what it looks like when you're not here. Um, and if it doesn't look great when you're not here, then like you're not a very good manager. Now, well, they said this to you, yeah. Yeah, and as I like it's a real like pivotal moment or that started me around shifting away from that. Um uh and it stuck with me. And you know, like and ultimately my first response to it was, well, I need to be good at my job because this defines who I am, this is how I get value. So I must learn to like enable others. Um probably didn't come for like, you know, like a natural spot, I think, initially. Um, but then yeah, I think you know, if I think about my early career from like a people and culture perspective and um and working in teams, you know, there's still moments where I look back and I'm just like, all I was interested in was like, how can I do well?

SPEAKER_00 8:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:58

Um, not necessarily like, is is me doing this taking an opportunity away from one of my teammates? Um, you know, is this actually a better moment for them? Um it was, it was, it was still very ego-driven and um, and my motivations and kind of the standards I was holding to myself. Um uh even when I was um at my first sort of like head of people role um uh with a company called Papercut. So like, you know, amazing company, great culture, sort of startup, going through like, you know, big um growth journey and you know, uh had uh incredible team there um that I was able to build and we did some really awesome things. Um the standards, like I I never held them to these standards. Um, and from talking to them that they never felt I was pushing these standards onto them either, which I don't know how. But like the standard I was holding to myself during that time was like it's I have to be the best person in the world at this job. Like I and and success is measured by my ability to change the way the entire world works. Um, and that and nothing except that was good enough. Um, and what I've sort of, I think, you know, in recent times sort of started to sort of, you know, that drove me to like just work ridiculous hours and overcommit and well it's quite the loft it's quite the lofty goals, I imagine. Yeah, exactly. It's like it's you know, um I I didn't even necessarily, even when I was explaining it to other people, think of it as insane.

SPEAKER_02 10:35

No, you're like, this is perfectly reasonable to achieve in eight hours a day. Or does I gotta say, yes.

SPEAKER_01 10:40

Yeah, exactly. Um and like I think what the recent thing and then how I've kind of like codified it, I guess, as as the humility piece is starting to realize that like I don't, well, first of all, it's a real ego, if you ever think, because I was like, you know, I want to have I I I probably tricked myself to think that's about like impact and change and positive change. Um it was, but also a lot of it was like, I'll be remembered, I'll be recognized, like I'm validated by everybody, you know, like um, and so yeah, like there's certainly like an ego thing driving that. Um and you know, driving me to then overcommit and driving me to uh, you know, maybe uh, you know, at times like, you know, be overzealous and not make space for others and and and these type of things. So yeah, the burnout sort of almost like was a hard reset on that and kind of gave me the chance to um take, you know, 12, 14 months out um of of kind of like not being in that space, um, focusing just more on like me and and those type of things. But yeah, it that it that the development of it and be able to talk to it and and and kind of like think about how it applies in terms of what I do now and how it's different, uh, it's really only been like the last 12 months. So there's probably like a gut feel to it, like three, four years ago. But in terms of like having it change the way that I work, setting up the business has actually probably been a really big catalyst for that.

SPEAKER_02 12:13

Amazing. I th I think it's it's so interesting. The like this part about sometimes these values are there, but we don't have the words to express them, and then all of a sudden we kind of put the effort in to put the words around them, and it's so powerful then to have that have that word uh word there. I'd be interested because if I was to guess, you probably have another value around achievement or quality or or both. Is that st is that the case? Was that a value? Is that still a value? And are you holding both uh humility and this achievement quality quality value as well? Like that's just what I'm hearing. I don't want to put words in your on your mouth, but keen to explore how has that evolved and shaped. I know that we're mainly focusing on humility today, but I think it's so interesting hearing you talk about some of these other things. They seem to be driven not just by status and ego, but by uh some of these other qualities as well.

SPEAKER_01 13:03

Yes, yeah, I think a desire to have like an impact um and a sense, you know, not not having like studied like uh HR, um studying like IT, um, joining an IT consultancy, and in the first week of joining that consultancy, then saying, hey, what you know, what do you want to do after this like initial sort of internal placement around like systems quality and that sort of stuff? And I'm like, oh, I wouldn't mind like, you know, kind of HR recruitment, like what you guys are doing. Why did I say that? Um, you know, I th I I think, you know, ultimately I think it came down from like, you know, work in the supermarkets and like being like so like loving that job. Like my both my parents worked in in there and uh and I was really proud of it and like you know, like and and kind of had an experience with their HR that kind of just like was like awful. Um and just and and all of a sudden just looking at it thinking like, hang on, like them surely there must be a better way of like how we bring people together. Uh and so like it has always been this sense of like, you know, people have this like you know latent potential um uh to want to have an impact to, you know, kind of like um uh alongside, you know, kind of all the other things that are important in life. It's I think, you know, you probably over-emphasize how important impact is, which we'll actually get to what I'm about to say. But so yeah, impact and and positively creating space for people to be able to work through life, be able to like hold that space for them, either individually or through, you know, like systems and kind of environmental conditions that kind of like allow that on like a broader scale so that people can like not get stuck developmentally, you know, like not get stuck on some pattern that's like recurring from something they've never been able to work through. Like yeah, creating a space for people to kind of be able to, you know, do that so that we can kind of like collectively work better together um and and you know, deliver things that make you know the place uh, you know, that make uh Earth a better planet for everyone to live on, not just like the humans. So that's impact pieces certainly, you know, kind of like um, yeah, it's not all just being like, I just want to, you know, like stand on a stage and be, hey, here I am. Yeah. Um, but I think like uh and I've always made it's always been in my head more like it's impact, it's impact, it's impact. And then I think as I've gotten older, I'm like, yeah, it's impact, but also there's a little ego thing going on here as well. It's you know, it kind of like gets out of hand a little bit. So um, yeah, so balancing the tension between between that, I think, uh has been uh really, really kind of at the heart of learning actually, like humility and how to then practice that more. Um yeah, uh can definitely go into an example, I I think, of like um how my first realization around like, you know, because it's sort of the the impact side of things and and almost like the limitations of just like more and more and more impact. Yeah, if that would be helpful. So I yeah, I think um, you know, I've always like looked for inspiration outside of like, you know, kind of core HR spaces. Um uh Ted talks about education practices, like, you know, systems, like natural systems to like just you know, basically anything that is like, hey, I wonder if that there could like work here. Um and uh and so what that means is that I can tend to be quite ideological in terms of like my vision of like what's achievable here. Um and uh in at times in my uh kind of career, um particularly in terms like that scale up, you know, kind of like journey, um, with a number of companies projecting that ideal ideology onto like everybody else, and just being like, hey, this is how we're gonna work now, uh, and and and kind of like it's going to be great. Um, and through the process of trying to do that, even with like a really enthused audience like across that company around for these things and just seeing it kind of like, you know, not necessarily like stick or land, yeah. Um, you know, there's probably like there's two experiences in there. One was like I would I'd recognize that I'd read a lot of this stuff theoretically, but I'd never actually practiced it before. So um I sought uh like a mentor and a coach for me. Like, you know, she didn't get involved in the business, um, but I would just reach out to her, like, you know, I'd catch up with her every month and just say, you know, um, Alexis, this is what's going on. Um Alexis, uh, she's a wonderful, wonderful human. She works for um a company called August Public in the US, and they specialize in helping, you know, kind of like scaling in like non-traditional ways. So like I had this like, hey, this is the model, like we're gonna apply it everywhere and it's gonna suit everybody. Um, and her wisdom and counsel and experience was like, hey, that model might work really well in that part of the business. But if you apply it in that part of the business, you're gonna just cause disruption. Um, and so yeah, it kind of started to need to be realize, like, you know, um, that uh context is like king and timing is king, and people's readiness is king. You know, there is not one dominant, like one solution to rule them all.

SPEAKER_02 18:34

No.

SPEAKER_01 18:34

Um, you know, I heard this on a podcast the other week and I I haven't validated it, so I don't know if it's true, but apparently um in uh kind of like uh Chinese language, there is no concept of paradox. Um, because they appreciate that for one thing to be true, it doesn't mean that something else must be false. Um, you know, whereas so much of like Western society without getting on my soapbox is like it like one thing, if one thing's true, the other thing must be must be false. And I started to learn, you know, that like that is that that's just not reality, right? You know, like that's not where, and so instead of like leading with ideology, ideology is a useful north star to kind of guide the direction that you want to go. Um, but once you start actually like building and sharing, let it go. Yeah. And then deal in the reality, like, where are people now? So you know, a call earlier today, I was like, you know, we're not I would always fall into the trap of being like, we're at we're at a four out of ten, and we're gonna go to 10 in one go. Yeah, you know, and and like it just doesn't work. It's like you know are you designing for the reality of where your people are at today um or where you want them to be in your ideology? And like, and I was doing probably far more of the the latter. And so like that sort of like learning the limitations of that and learning, hey, like, yeah, ideologies are cool, but like you you you you drive change and you win people over by like understanding their reality and and figuring out how can you make their reality slightly, you know, kind of like easier, and how do you help them maybe make one step in the direction towards something different? So yeah, that I think meant that like all of a sudden I started to be able to apply constraints to impact an ideology of how to make that impact. Um, and then you know, through that start to realize, okay, I don't necessarily need to know all the answers. It's more about me being able to help people find what their answers are and what their truth are through this experience, um, which I think then informed the, you know, kind of the I don't need to be the, you know, kind of main character type thing. And uh and then helped me inform what's enough. And that's like, hey, I'm coming in, all these things I could do, but I'm here. What's this little thing that I can help with right now? And let's just start there. And um, and as a result of that, it then informs like, you know, okay, what do I need from what are my uh my wife Gain? I need from this business.

SPEAKER_00 21:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:09

You know, and and instead of like working like six, seven days a week um doing crazy, crazy hours, I'm like, okay, my utilization targets 24 hours a week of billable work, uh, you know, 40 weeks out of 52. Um, so you know, you've got like effectively, you know, a three-month kind of like, you know, downtime across the year. Um and then that allows me to like, you know, do other things and you know, prioritize health and uh and it all comes from like, yeah, cool. I could just grow, grow, grow, grow, grow. And you talk to people, I'm sure you're the same with your business. Like, when are you gonna add more people? You know, like, you know, and it's just like, why?

SPEAKER_02 21:49

Well, this is uh I mean this gets to fundamentally, you know, the that it's actually fundamentally gets the purpose of this podcast, which is that we're fed a narrative uh which is grow it or Costs, scale, work super hard, success means how many dollars you're making per year, and you're only succeeding if that's growing. Uh it but we can do whatever we want. If we're doing our own thing, and this is, you know, founders, portfolio, career professionals, we've got a lot of agency over how we design our work, how we design our day, how we design our week, what we deliver. But sometimes we forget that because there's a narrative uh pushing on us that it can only be done a certain way. So part of the intention of this is to challenge that and go, well, does it does it have to be that way? Or do we actually, if we get more in tune with what we value, what's important to us, can we do it in a different way? And I think we can do it in a different way. So it's great to hear that you've taken that and gone, yes, I can. I can have 12 weeks holiday a year because that's what's important. 24 hours a week a week billable work, that's what's important to me. I don't need to burn myself out to get success because this success is defined by myself and not by someone else. So I think it's so important. Um it's uh it's interesting when you were talking as well, uh, that this point around having the answer or feeling like you need to have the answer, I often will say, I've got an answer, but it's not the answer. So I know everyone's got an answer. And actually, if we can all share what our answer is, we can collectively come to uh we won't we never we won't even necessarily come collectively come to the answer, but we'll come to a I reckon a better answer if we kind of all combine forces together. But we've all got a perspective to share, and it's I think it's as part of all these processes so uh important to hear here uh different perspectives. And so you mentioned something right at the beginning when you're you're talking about when you're at the front of a room, you get a question or a curly thing, and you feel like you've got a you take a pause and a beat before you answer to go, uh, is this the right spot for me to contribute here? And it reminded me very much of uh Michael Bongay Steiner's The Advice Monster. And I'm sure you've seen that video when you were doing I was kind of thinking of the advice monsters rearing its head when that happens, and you've learned how to curtail that. And I'd love to know what what is it that you because it is quite difficult. I think for most people that is quite hard to curtail the whether it's the ego or something similar to that, and actually let the humility come through. How do you let the humility come through? What are you doing in those moments where you could have the answer, maybe you do have an answer? What are you doing?

SPEAKER_01 24:08

Yeah, um lots of uh therapy. Um so you know, like yeah, I've worked with my uh my therapist for 15 years now, give or take. Um and uh mostly like regular, you know, like mostly fortnightly during that entire time. There's like two or three years where I was like, hey, I'm good now, like, you know. Um, and then you know, I was like, oh, actually now I feel like I need a bit of support. And like I don't look at it from a like uh, you know, oh like what's some massive mental break that I have. It's more a case of like, hey, what are the things I can do? Well, it's actually an investment in me, like a safe space for me to reflect on what's going on so that I can like, you know, he holds space for me to work through things. And um, you know, there's I I remember got a diagnosis of uh ADHD a number of years ago. Um, and as part of that, I sort of it became far once, you know, kind of got the right medication. Um, my sense and the way I describe it to people is that it just became far easier to be me. Like the amount of things I was having to do to kind of like hold things together and the masking and that sort of stuff kind of made sense as to why, you know, like I'd I'd gone through like these burnout cycles. Um and I remember thinking about like, you know, this uh company, uh paper cut where I kind of like, you know, like uh ultimately like decided, hey, look, I'm I need to like step away and um uh and they were great, they were really supportive and you know, it was it was it was very um well handled. Uh and I yeah, I I remember getting the diagnosis and then talking to my um therapist about it and going back to like, oh I wonder like had I, you know, got uh had I been on the meds, would I have been able to like, you know, um like stay there and um because yeah, the you know the uh compensation was it was a different lifestyle, right? The compensation was great, like um uh and you know, kind of the impact was great, and you know, um there were a lot of things that were were kind of good. Um, and you know, I sort of felt almost like limitless a little bit in terms of the lifestyle that like Katie and I could lead um as a result of that. And so there was this little thing around like regret, remorse, around, you know, it's nice to just, you know, not have to think about any kind of like financial kind of like worries. And um, and he he sort of said to me, like, look, that's true in terms of like, yes, you are unlimited about fine, but think about all the limitations that were existing on the other parts of your life. And I think, you know, we talked that if you look at, you know, there's so much like parts of like the way the world works and the business where you know important costs are actually hidden. You know, like, you know, and the and the the company doesn't necessarily need to wear those costs. Maybe it's about how they get you know, power or those type of things. Yeah, just these huge hidden costs are actually really important to kind of quantify. And I think um for us as a as as people, that sense of like, hey, how much I'm investing, you know, how much I'm like, what is the cost of me being the advice monster or you know, the main character?

SPEAKER_00 27:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:23

Um, and the pursuit um of like more and more more growth at all costs. Like, um, and so yeah, if I think about it from you know, like that started, that idea of like surfacing those costs so they're no longer hidden and invisible, and starting to recognize them more within myself. So, like, hey, how's my body feeling? Like so, you know, that's translated to doing like lots of um like breath work and um trying lots of different things that never really landed, and then finding recently like a really good ritual that like works quite nicely, which it's basically like a four-second um in, uh kind of four-second hold, uh, anywhere from like eight seconds or longer, sort of like uh exhale, um, and then kind of like humming as I exhale. That just seems to have like, you know, just that's the magic combination, yeah. So yeah, for me, it's just that that was the one that like all of a sudden I'm like now I actually do feel um, you know, uh grounded. Um, and it gives me more sense as to what's going on, what are the costs, how am I feeling. So that's been really kind of important. Um, but yeah, it just it now gives me a framework to be like, okay, if I take on more client work um and I commit to, you know, like uh 40 hours of billable work for a three-month period. Um it's not to say that I wouldn't do that in the right circumstances, but I'm when I'm thinking through well, what I'm like, I'm I'm trying to map out all the costs. Yeah and not just like, you know, it's not it's not just like, well, that's more money, so I'm just gonna do it. That's awesome. It's like, what do I lose, you know, um, from that. And and the and the thing is for me and the lifestyle I want to live, there's some significant losses that I would I would have that. And so is that worth the extra, like what do I gain in? And it's so it's a constant like, you know, like gain and loss type thing of of sort of like indexing and just keeping it front of mind and and that and that's where the well, what is enough?

SPEAKER_02 29:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:18

You know, yeah. Like because like earning more than enough, like what does it do?

SPEAKER_02 29:23

What does it what else does it enable? Where is it, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:26

I think it's uh No, no, I was just I was just gonna say it gets to a point where it doesn't enable anything other than actually like you losing the things that provide value to you in other ways. Like connection, like you know, like coming to be able to meet you for the first time and and talking like 45 minutes of our own work stuff and then like three hours around soccer.

SPEAKER_00 29:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:44

Um like you know, I I wasn't connecting with anybody previously. I was just off in my own little bubble, just trying to, you know, endure and survive. And so like connection and how much that restores me is really, really important.

SPEAKER_02 29:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:58

So I commit, if I overcommit, I don't do that anymore.

SPEAKER_02 30:01

No, it removes the capacity to do that. And it's it is similar to you, it's one of my favorite things about running a business, which I feel like people that are in a more traditional corporate job don't have, is this ability to just have long, leisurely coffees and lunches. Like I go out and I can go two, three hours for a lunch, and there's nothing, you know, as long as I get the stuff done that I need to get done, um that's fine. It's it's there's no there's no issues there at all. Um, and something you said there, which I think is such an important part when they talk about a lot around being more intentional and living with values in mind, is it it doesn't mean that the value is the only thing that matters. There's other things that of course matter. We're running a business, so we've got to consider the financials, we've got to consider the commercials, that all these things are important. But when we're living with our values, when we make that decision around do I take this piece of client work on or not, I'm considering my values quite strongly in the process. I'm not just considering the dollars it's bringing in. And I think that's a big shift because I think it's not just about the values, but it's not just about the finances either. Actually, bring both together and make a good decision for you, for the business, uh considering all those different variables. So I think it's such a I think you painted that in a nice way that when those things come along, it sounds like yeah, you are really pausing and considering what are all those variables, what are all the trade-offs and costs, because that I think that exist.

SPEAKER_01 31:16

Yeah. Well, that question you just asked me earlier about how you're holding these things in attention, you know, like if I think back to like values in the workplace and where I've worked, um, in isolation, a value, you know, even if especially if it's just like, you know, uh uh one word. Yeah. Um, you know, with maybe like a couple of stories, um has real limited utility and in fact actually can be quite like um harmful. Um uh I used to use the term uh you know like weaponizing values. Yes. I I did this shit thing because of that value. Well, yeah. You know, but but and if you don't hold them intention, even the value itself, you know, kind of like when is that value applied too much? And yeah, um, when is it applied too little? You know, like it's so yeah, the the concept of like holding an individual value intention, holding it in tension with how it impacts others, like yeah, that's that's that that's where you turn like values from just like this nice little thing on a wall that actually kind of people are cynical about to like something that you know can really sort of like guide and change and you know help you sort of stay uh in balance, if you will.

SPEAKER_02 32:27

Totally. And I think this is I think the reality of these things exactly that like with the organizations, the work I do, a part of it is well, what's the trade-off you're making here? So you it's all well and good saying we value collaboration, but what are you gonna give off that's also uh give up that's also valuable? Because collaboration's not free. Like it you've got to either you're gonna give up time, you're gonna give up speed, you're giving up something. So let's start articulating what are the things we're willing to give up. But also the reality is, and it's personal values, organizational values, that you've let's say you've got four or five strong ones, some of them are gonna come into tension sometimes. And like I get this a lot personally. I've got a value around fun, and I have a value around uh achievement. And sometimes those things clash because sometimes to do uh get the achievement, I need to do boring things. And so I've got to reconcile that, and that's very hard for me. And whenever that tension happens, it's very, very difficult. Um you've got to really work through it. It's not easy, but it's important to do it in a deliberate way. And I think values help us. We've got the language around it to be able to describe uh these things. And obviously, for you, you've got the value around humility. It sounds like the other one's something to do with impact. So you can often then you can now you've got the language to talk about those two competing when they do compete. They don't always compete, but when they do compete, you've got the language to uh rationalise it and make a decision, which I think is quite uh really cool. And it sounds like you've been doing that a lot deliberately over the course of starting your business. And I think it's that's a uh nice. I'd I'd love for to give you an opportunity to talk a little bit about the the work you are doing. And I think you're doing some really, really interesting things with the business Give a Dam. And you've also got a new thing that you're bringing to market, PX Dojo. Um so the mic is over to you. Tell us tell us about the cool stuff you're doing.

SPEAKER_01 34:03

Yeah, so uh yeah, Give a Dam. Um I uh sort of started uh probably uh 14, 13 uh months ago. Um and uh yeah, after you know, kind of a decade or so in uh sort of like scale up uh kind of like environments, leading kind of like people teams and sort of helping businesses sort of scale, um, came out of those roles and kind of thought, hey, there's something different around the way I think about, you know, kind of like the you know, the role of HR, if you want to uh kind of like call it that. Um and uh and and it seemed to be at a moment where you know HR as an industry was kind of being more questioned for the value that it was bringing than ever before. And you know, lots of like budget cuts happening and roles being made redundant, and you know, just yeah, it it felt feels like you know, kind of that space around um uh around the people kind of like element of a business is kind of like really like, hey, yeah, you're a nice to have when things are great and we're all in surplus, but when we're in tough economies and you know, kind of like it's it's all profitability at all costs, then you know, you're kind of like a bit of an optional extra. Um whereas for me that was like that's weird. Like, you know, kind of like if you're trying to figure out like how to, you know, kind of like drive the business to be more successful, then how you figure out how do we get our people to like work better together is at the heart of that. So, you know, that's kind of you know, and there was something around like applying kind of human-centered design, product thinking, you know, uh agile kind of methodologies, just things from adjacent areas uh that I'd been doing kind of just I think through being exposed to it in my teams, um, that seemed to help, you know, me and my team be able to do that more. So give a damn effectively is around just helping, you know, kind of uh organizations uh think about really I I refer to it more now as like work enablement.

SPEAKER_00 35:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:58

Um and there's multiple lens. You know, how do you enable a people team to like work more effectively? Um, how do you enable uh the teams um within your organization to work more effectively? Um how do you uh enable your leaders to be more effective? Um uh, you know, how do you label, uh enable the whole organization? So there's like multiple kind of layers to it. Kind of almost think of it now as like a little bit of a Russian doll. Yeah. Like, you know, where you start on one and then you can kind of like expand. And so yeah, I've really enjoyed the opportunity to work, especially with like small businesses and even small businesses that aren't in tech, um, and just learn, you know, around like just these really cool, you know, often three or four bit, you know, people, businesses, you know, one person kind of like owning, uh, just trying to do our you know, good work, localize, supporting people around them in the community, um, who maybe just haven't necessarily had exposure to some of the you know kind of ways um uh and that could actually really help them, you know, like the intentional around where they want their business to go is that growth? Um, you know, and so yeah, there's there's that's kind of the consulting side of things. Um and uh yeah, in terms of PX Dojo, um just really excited new collaboration um that I'm doing uh with uh with Meg Trotter. Um so yeah, she's uh based up in Brisbane. Um and yeah, we came together last year for uh Matt's uh Startup People Summit um event uh and sort of naively was like, hey, we're talking about the same thing. How about we, you know, kind of like do our presentation together? Um and I was kind of keen to just like not be up on a stage talking by myself. Um and Meg and I were talking about Dungeons and Dragons and, you know, kind of like board games and all that within like 45 minutes. I'm like, yeah, this is gonna work. This is gonna be good. Yeah. So we collaborated on like, you know, our uh uh a sort of a workshop there around how to sort of apply some of these principles and sharing our own experiences, but we kind of did it through like this real like nifty, kind of like board game, kind of like, you know, treasure map type um kind of thing, which was which was cool and fun. So at that point we're like, hey, you know, it's cool. We we we can work well together. And so PX Dojo has kind of emerged through like our ongoing kind of discussions and collaborations, and uh we recognize that there are a lot of people in like the people space kind of want to uh try something different, um, feel a need to like do something different because like the older ways, it's not that they're wrong, it's just that like they maybe don't fit the context of the day. Um, and but they don't know where to start. Um, and I think actually the shift from being like the expert, the gatekeeper, the the controller of all the policy versus an enabler, a facilitator, you know, kind of like there's some pretty strong like role identities, like ways I feel I'm good at my job and I can go home at the end of the day that are actually like it's almost like what do you need to shed before you can embrace the new. And so, yeah, Meg and I uh kind of recognize that you know there's some brilliant stuff out there in this space um uh from people overseas. Um uh Chris Midcast got a phenomenal um PX as a product course. Um uh and you know, Jesse Zahn uh Zwan is talking about some phenomenal things in all the books that she's releasing, and uh Luco Mahoney with his uh sort of sapien X uh kind of like PX espresso hour is just like yeah, you know, inspired very much by those people. Um and we've collaborated with those people a little bit. And then Meg and I were just like, yeah, but there's this entry point of someone who's like really at the start of that journey, um, who knows they want something different, but they just need a safe bridge to start entering into it, which is kind of what we uh doing with Peg Stogio and the the sort of the white belt.

SPEAKER_02 39:56

I love it as well because of course it's you know, you talk about the the part of it is shedding all this stuff, and you start you started the episode by talking about the stuff you needed to shed when you get those questions, the perspective shift you needed to make. So I think what an amazing team because we've had Meg on as well. So I've I've got a podcast recorded with Meg too. And I think what an amazing team to bring something like this to uh market um and share your kind of experiences and perspectives as well, because I think it's super uh valuable.

unknown 40:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:23

Thank you so so much for coming onto the show and uh going deep into this concept of humility and what it means to you. I really appreciate it, and I've taken a lot away uh to noodle on myself from this uh chat. And um, I'm sure we're gonna chat again very, very soon as well.

unknown 40:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:39

Thank you, man. It's been uh actually the first podcast I've ever been on. Oh, there you go. You're a natural yeah. I didn't tell you that beforehand. Um I thought you might pull the invite and just be like, oh, can't have this plate on, but uh yeah, no. What's this? It's some kind of experiment? Um so yeah, thank you for the opportunity. It's been uh I've really enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_02 40:59

Uh you've been wonderful. I'm sure you're gonna get many, many, many more opportunities to talk about your ideas and stories. Thank you so much. Thanks, Matt.

unknown 41:07

Bye.