SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to the Values Lab, a podcast series for founders and portfolio career professionals seeking inspiration to live a more values-led life. And today I'm delighted to have Penelope Barr on the show to talk about the value of freedom. Now, freedom is one of my personal values as well. So I'm very uh interested to explore this common value that we both have together. Now, a little bit about Penelope. So Penelope is on a mission for you to live a life that feels good to you, not one that looks good to others. And when I read that, I it's um it's it's so interesting. Because I also, one of the reasons I love the values work is for this reason as well, is to understand what's important to yourself and to try and build and design a life around things that are meaningful to you. So I love the commonality we've got here. And I'm really looking forward to exploring this value together with you, Penelope. How are you doing? Welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_00 0:48

Thank you. Yeah, I'm great. Thanks. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 0:51

And I think what a what a let's start in the place of freedom, because I've got my definition of what freedom means to me, but I would love to learn more about what does freedom mean to you?

SPEAKER_00 1:01

So um, as I, you know, my my catchphrase is as you've just read out, um, I really for for me, so the last six years I've been living a life that I've designed, which I call 633. And that means that I structure my life according to an annual vision. Um, and then within that, so I I I really subscribe to freedom within structure. So I'm definitely highly pragmatic and very organized. And but the older I get, the more woo-woo I become as well. So um, you know, for me, the freedom is the ability to kind of set up a life that you want to lead and to think about what we're doing as a total life. Um, and I think the, you know, the freedom that I have is to be able to define my own success measures. So having a, you know, 25-year career in a global career in corporate roles, you know, I did define a lot of what I did. I was lucky, I was always doing new interesting things, but you're obviously working within a construct that you don't actually have full control over. So, you know, now for the last sort of nearly six years, I've been working for myself. And the key thing that is the driver is the freedom that I have to choose in terms of, you know, what I want to do. I rarely do things that I don't want to do anymore. Um, and you know, that doesn't come without some courage, um, without some support from my husband and my daughter and my dog. Um, but you know, it it's really something that I've worked very hard to do. So um, yeah, for me, that's the freedom is kind of the o one of the the key overarching premise upon which I make all my decisions.

unknown 2:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:50

Yeah, amazing. And I guess what I'm curious to know is you you have a similar background where I started off in the corporate world and went out on my own as well. Did you was freedom one of the main reasons you wanted to go out on your own? Or is it something that you you made the leap and discovered, oh, there's all this freedom here? Was there a yeah, tell me more about making the leap? Because I think that's on the mind for a lot of people.

SPEAKER_00 3:10

Yeah, so mine wasn't mine was a really long leap. So um about 20 or 15 years ago, 20 years ago, I was working as an expat in the UK with NAB, but I also had a lot of friends in um, so I was I was in the UK, like UK, um, so London, Leeds, and Glasgow. So some Scotland some Scottish um time as well. But I had a lot of friends in Paris. So I used to spend a lot of time in Paris. And at that time I was working sort of, you know, minimum 12, often 16-hour days. And then I'd spend lots of time traveling and I'd go to my friends in Paris on the weekend. They never spoke about work. They, whereas, you know, my Australian friends and my UK friends were always speaking about work, and I was like, oh, this is really interesting. So the I had this idea after spending a lot of time with them that actually there was a very different way to live, which was quite different to the kind of career ladder that I'd been pursuing for so long. So I had this idea that I wanted to work, to live and work differently, and it's taken me quite a few years to put that in play. But so when my last big corporate role ended, I didn't know it was going to be my last big one. I immediately gathered other people around me, which is what I always do. I loved sort of working together alone. Um, and to to you know, to look for the next big role. And within about two weeks, I realized I was coaching these other people and how to do do that approach because I'm very good at sort of thinking through what's the strategy and then how do you implement it. And so that really set the direction. I sort of thought, actually, maybe I could make a go of this. And I I really then linked back to this idea that I had had quite a few years ago, where I wanted to sort of only work some of the year and then, you know, pursue the multitude of passions that I have, um, as well as prioritize travel, because travel is the thing that defines my leisure time and my curiosity and my, you know, I'm definitely a citizen of the world. So I sort of brought all that together. It didn't, it didn't happen as smoothly as it's sounding, but it did happen relatively quickly because I'm an everyday experimenter. And so, and I've always sort of thought, well, what's the worst that can happen? I'll just go and get another job. And I did have flirtations in the, especially in the first year of doing that. And every time I got close, I just thought, no, I just I don't want to, I don't want to be doing that anymore. Um, and I completely understand the choices that others make in terms of permanent roles, et cetera. Um, you know, I I I this is my model. Um, and you know, however you choose to live is is up to you. But one of the things that I do do now is coach other people and how to create their own portfolio careers and their own 633 model. And it doesn't have to be 633, it can be 10-1-1. It can be, you know, I've got people who are seven, da-da-da. Some people are doing that for now. But a lot of people on coaching are thinking five, seven to ten years into the future. So they know that's what they want to do. Um, and they're just kind of working out how they're gonna do it because, you know, they want to shore up their skills and their kind of financial backing and and make sure the time is right for them. So, you know, that's that's um, you know, where the idea of freedom came from me, but it took it took me quite a lot of time to kind of think through the dimensions. And then I just kind of, you know, it it that change was sort of forced upon me, um, which was great. Um, but I just sort of thought I'm gonna, I'm just gonna give it a go. And that's that's how I've approached um, you know, what what I was doing in the beginning is quite different to what I'm doing now. But it's all been a voyage of discovery, just sort of thinking, well, I'll just I'll just see what happens. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:53

Yeah. Amazing. Doesn't it take a lot of, I guess you need a little bit of a catalyst, and sometimes it's a little bit of push, sometimes that pushes outside of our control, but it just gives us the go, okay. I'm gonna give it a crack now. And then it's a lot of experimentation to figure out what's right for me. And I love that you mentioned, you know, it's six three three for you, but it could be different for other people. And yeah, could you talk to me a little bit about? I guess this sounds like it's your guiding construct for freedom. What does 633 mean? What does it what does it mean? And what what do you what do you mean when it can look different for different people?

SPEAKER_00 7:21

Yeah, so for me, um I work six months, six-ish months of the year in interim exec role. So across transformation, technology, product, innovation, or change. So I'm a journalist anyway. Um three months of the year I travel and I do my passion projects, and then three months of the year I create. So it's generate, create, and rejuvenate. And then across the year, I also host a range of different communities and do some coaching. So, you know, the thing that I'm I'm one of four of five girls, and so I'm always kind of doing things with other people. Um, and so the key one of the key things for me is sort of bringing other people along because, you know, when you step out of the prevailing wisdom and you decide to do something differently, sometimes you're kind of looking around thinking, oh, am I on this journey alone? Um, and so one of the things that I've created is a couple of different communities and some, you know, I do lunches and breakfasts and things for people to come along and to sort of say, okay, there are other people who are working this out. Um, and so I don't feel so alone. So yeah, that's that's kind of what that looks for me, it looks like for me. But yeah, for other people, um, I've got quite a few people who are, for example, English living in Australia or Indian living in Australia or Danish living in Australia who want to spend more time in different countries. So they don't want to necessarily be a complete digital nomad. They want to have, you know, a base in Australia and a base somewhere else. And so then it's working out, you know, how can you make that happen? And so there's quite a few dimensions when you're sort of thinking through what does that look like? And that's the work that I really love, helping people work out because so many people have got so many more skills than they realize. Um, you know, the world is such a big place. And when you're in that day-to-day grind, it's so hard to put your head above the parapet and have a look around and see that there's other ways to live. And also from a financial perspective, we get, you know, um, I'm the same, you know, when you make more money, you you I have tended to spend more money. And so you're like, oh even though I'm earning a lot of money, I don't really feel like I'm getting ahead. So one of the other things that I do a lot of work on with people is getting really clear from a financial perspective. You know, what do you actually need versus what do you want? And, you know, what do you need for now? And then sort of the, you know, the medium term. Um so yeah, that really helps. So I kind of I help I help people to kind of work through the the key dimensions for them. Yeah. And then for me, um, you know, I mentioned before that I'm becoming a bit more woo-woo. You know, the the there's a combination of this um structure that I create. So I talk about freedom within structure. I create every year, I do an annual plan in November. And so I set out what I'm gonna do. So I I always plan in a couple of big adventures, I plan in a few smaller adventures, so I want to be going away somewhere at least every second month. Um, or and then I plan in some learning goals, and then I say, okay, so I put all of that in my calendar, and then I say, okay, given all of that, where does the work happen? So what how am I starting this? So I take a bit of a different thing, different approach to the way that other people might plan. Um, and you know, that often looks like I'm doing my create and rejuvenate seasons in better weather times, and then I'm doing my kind of consolidated working sessions in um less perfect weather times. Um and so there's a couple of drivers. And then through the year, I have a very structured planning approach where I'm constantly, you know, setting out the next quarter and then, you know, reviewing the f the previous quarter, setting out the next quarter. Um, doing I do that quarterly, monthly, weekly, daily as well. So, you know, each day I'll set out what I'm doing in terms of my three MITs, my most important tasks, and then I'll review before I finish the day. I'll also do that intraday. So I effectively set up my days that are six three three as well. So I effectively work six hours. I have three hours of kind of, you know, a bit of me time. So I go to I swim every day, I've walked my dog, um, you know, off quite often I'll meet someone for lunch or for a coffee, etc. And then I also do some creative work. So I write and I paint um and I, you know, create products, etc. So yeah, the the kind of daily six through three is I've only been doing that for the last two years, but the overarching plan I've been doing for nearly six. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:18

It's it's so interesting you talk about scheduling time. And obviously, we've got a mutual friend in Steph and Steph's episode. She talked about planning the week and booking the fun in first. And I think it's so interesting that you're, you know, similar kind of premises, except you're you're zooming further out and going, well, let my let's book in my freedom first. You know, I see this such this uh interesting link for you between freedom and travel and the how those two things connect, but also hearing a lot about freedom and how you help others discover what their freedom looks like and what is what does it mean for them. Um and financial freedom. I know you know when you were talking about where where you so often over-leverage ourselves, we get a better salary, and all of a sudden our tastes get expensive, we buy a bigger house. We're in no better situation, really. Um and it's it's such a trapping for if freedom is of important value, because it restricts our freedom when we have large financial um burdens on us. So I think it's so interesting hearing the common patterns there for you, and in particular, starting with let work, this is an important value, plan with this value in mind. And I love that you look at the year-long lens because I I I must admit I do quarterly, weekly, and it's good, but you fascinated me with this content. Let's zoom out even further and go, how could these chunks of time look different? And then how can I make that a reality? Which is I guess that's nicely leads to my next question. Is I think obviously these things sound amazing, but how do you make it a reality? How do you make it a reality where you go, hey, half my year is you know, focused on these interim gigs, but then I've got these three months of travel. Because I think I imagine a lot of people listening be like, I'd love to do that, but how is it possible? How do you make it possible? What the how do you engineer your life so you get that level of freedom? What kinds of things are you thinking about to make it happen?

SPEAKER_00 13:49

So the key thing to understand is I have a husband and a daughter and also a dog as well. Um and so I have to factor them in. Um so sometimes that means I might be doing a little bit of travel alone or with friends, but usually we we manage we make it work. So, you know, anyone who's got kids, you've got more than three months with um the school holidays inbuilt. So it doesn't, you know, what what's important is what is success to you. So when I'm talking about my travel time, some years it's been three months together, other other years it's been, you know, different components, but it kind of is either three months or more. How I do it is I call November November. So I want to close out the year in November in terms of the things that I need to do. That means that so I do that for the first um couple of weeks of November, and then for the last two weeks of November, I'm planning the next year. So I get very clear on what it is I want to do. So this year, for example, I well, so the end of last year and this year, I was finishing up a book and now I'm publishing it and I'm about to launch it. So that meant that for the first part of the year, I knew I wasn't going to be able to work because I needed to devote time to a book because it's a big endeavor. But it was something that was going to set me up for um the life that I want in terms of writing more books, um, doing coaching around those books, et cetera, doing a lot more speaking. So that's an example of where, you know, understanding what your values are, what are the key um, you know, products or key objectives and life goals that you have, and then being clear about, well, how am I going to actually make this work? So you the kind of thinking is like getting quite strategic over the year, but then thinking through, well, actually, what does this look like? So yeah, I think it's a combination. So, so anyone can do this. And as I said, I do, you know, I also do six, three, three for my days. Most people, most of us, and I include myself, and I've done it forever, we overwork. So, you know, we we spend too much time at work because we don't discern, we don't use enough discernment around what are the quality goals that need to be applied for each particular piece of work. We kind of, for a lot of us, if we're responsible adults, we go in hard for everything, which is beautiful, except we don't need to do that. So, you know, the the the kind of there's some real principles that have enabled me to make this make this happen. So I get very clear about the money that I need. So I need money for my daughter's schooling, I need money to kind of fund her rowing career. Um, and I don't buy much for myself anymore because I don't want stuff anymore. So kind of all the things, you know, I've got 150 pairs of shoes. That's enough for anyone for a whole lifetime. Um like I just don't need to, I I don't get joy anymore out of buying new things where I I used to do that. So I've, you know, I've helped that. So, you know, for for people who are thinking, well, how do I make this happen happen? That's one of the first things that I get people to do is to kind of work through what is their portfolio career budget, which is often, you know, thinking through, well, what do I earn? How could I earn that differently? So often if you're doing, you know, interim roles or contract roles things, you might lose a bit on if you're, you know, a little bit on the um sort of security, but there's no job that's secure anyway anymore. Um and so, you know, it's sort of thinking, okay, well, how can I get the amount of money that I need in the most expeditious way? Doing something that you love. So again, you know, that's that's a key thing for me. So I get very clear on the on the dollars and I encourage people to do that. The other thing is quite often people, if you're, you know, you're toiling away in your in your day job and you're thinking, God, I could never make this possible because I don't know what I would sell, I don't know what I would do. The next question I work with people on is what do people come and ask you about? So there'll be there'll be a whole lot of things that you do naturally that you don't even think are differentiators for yourself. But there'll be things that people come and sort of say, okay, when I think about this thing, I think about this person. And so it's listing for what those things are because they're the things that you're going to be able to create as offers and create as products. Then if you're currently in a role, I also encourage people to then start experimenting. So the whole premise around a portfolio career is a little bit like, you know, when you go to a financial planner, and the financial planner says we need to mitigate risk with some diverse income, some diverse financial um products, and we need to optimize opportunity with some that are going to, you know, align with your values, but pay you more, you know, do do a bit more work for you. And that's exactly the same thing as a portfolio career. So it's kind of thinking through what else could I be doing? And even if you're, you know, thinking, oh, my job's great, I love it, and I'm very secure. We know that from a corporate perspective, it's just a numbers game. Look what's happening at the moment in terms of all of the, you know, you know, AI is taking all of the jobs. It's being used around the world to make mass redundancies. So you can protect yourself, you can mitigate some risk by actually starting something small. It doesn't have to be enormous, but just so that you're actually building some confidence so that when you are, you know, it's and not if, but when you are, when your role is made redundant, um, you had then have a choice because then you can say, okay, well, I could keep going and, you know, find a similar role, which might be the path for some people. Or actually, I've been doing this other thing which I've realized I've tested, I've validated. I think I can make that something better, bigger. Um, it just gives you some optionality. So I think, yeah, you know, it's kind of thinking about the finances, your skills, your aptitude and your confidence in doing something. And you only get that through, you know, consistently practicing. Um, and then, you know, then you take it up another level, which is, and how do I want to live forever? Because I I do a lot of work around um kind of legacy building in terms of personal manifestos and that sort of thing. Because I really, I really want to be aligned with how I'm living. I've had quite a few deaths around me for the last couple of years, and that really brings, you know, um, you know, a finite um view and perspective of what's what could happen in your world. So, you know, there's there's kind of a few lenses that I apply. And I think other people go to that.

SPEAKER_01 20:40

Yeah, and I you know, I was gonna jump back to the one you mentioned there around, you know, what do people come to you for? Because it's so interesting. We have all this knowledge we assume other people have. And it's only, and I'm sure you've probably had a similar experience, when you go out on your own, you start working, you start working with less mature clients, and all of a sudden you're doing quite basic stuff and they're blown away, and you're like, oh, actually, I know a ton of stuff that I've assumed was that like everyone knew, but that not everyone knows this, and it's quite interesting when you start interrogating your own thinking and own uh assumptions there. One step I'm gonna take back because I think it's quite interesting, and I think it's something more people should do. I've noticed that a lot of your things have names like 633, you mentioned November. You know, I often talk about name your rhythms and rituals. Like I've got something called Tricky Time, which is for my creativity. It's like a day, and it's like that's what I'm gonna spend to be creative. Uh talk to me. Is this something you've done intentionally, accidentally? Like, yeah, talk me through this process of giving things a fun, cool name and how does it work for you? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:37

Yeah, I've I've always done it. So um I've got Ship It Sundays, Monetize Fast, um, Career on Your Terms, um, 633. Yeah, I I love it. Um, I've always done it. I don't know why I think it it really well, it comes from, you know, a lifetime of running big programs of work or running strategies, and you know, you know, you need a an anchor for people to hold on. You need a shortcut. That kind of um, you know, sort of whereby you can kind of be descriptive. So you, you know, this thing does what it says on the tin, um, so that people can kind of understand what the outcome is going to be. Because I think that, you know, in a in a world, a busy world, you kind of need a point of differentiation. And I just like, you know, I like having fun. So how I do my business development, for example, as as kind of how I introduce fun and freedom into my approach is I create an end-to-end approach, so an end-to-end flow. So the the interim roles that I get, I kind of work out when I want them, and then I kind of do the do the flow of how I'm going to get them. And then I award 10 points for each of the steps I've taken, and then I set a reward at the end of that. So often when I so I recently got a new interim role, and so I bought myself a new piece of jewelry. Um, but quite often it's uh, you know, going out for a nice coffee or going and having something beautiful to eat or going for a walk, or, you know, it can be little things. But I do like to, you know, to just try to gamify a little bit more of life so that you can kind of just get that everyday joy. Like I'm, you know, I can't I get quite chuffed when I quite often when I set out when I set out a goal and then I achieve it. So at the moment I've got a goal of um, depending on what happens in the uh, you know, in the world, of launching my book later in the year in in London and in Paris. I have no um, you know, I we go to Paris a lot and we go to London a bit, but I don't know any bookshops there, I don't know any publishers there, I don't know any, but I'm just like, yeah, I'm gonna see if I can make it happen. So I like setting, I like setting little challenges for myself. And then like, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:50

Yeah, I love it. I think we're very similar. I've been I'm big on gamification, just bringing a little bit more fun into things. I think and I think naming things is such a simple way of doing that. You give it a bit of a name, you give it a even if it's your own little thing, just give it a little name, and all of a sudden it's uh it's just elevated it just that that little bit into uh something more meaningful and and fun. Um I'm gonna go back to you mentioned something which is you got to a point now where you basically you're it sounds like you you can pick things that you really want to work on. So you're kind of you've got to the point where you get an opportunity, let's say, and you're able to say, is this something that aligns? Um I've often talked a bit about values in to help make some of those decisions around what's a yes and what's a no. Can you talk me through what's your process of going, is this something that I want to work on right now or not? Because I imagine, you know, part of the challenge is when you you experiment a lot, and I've I definitely have gone through this. You say a lot yes to lots of things, and sometimes it's like you over-index on yes because you just want to try stuff, and you kind of try and bring it back. I'd love to know what's your process to kind of bring it back so you kind of get the hit rate of the yeses being more right than wrong.

SPEAKER_00 24:51

Yeah. Um, so I think there's a couple of things. Um, one is I do take an experimental approach to my entire life. And why that's important is because, you know, we referenced the calling things names. I'm constantly thinking of new things I can do. And what I used to do, and what, you know, because I'm, you know, very dedicated, was I used to then create the entire thing. And then I say, da-da, here you go. Um, world, how about you buy this thing for me, or how about we do this thing together? And people are like, oh, I don't, you know, sounds good, but I don't need it, or sounds good, but I don't understand it, or whatever the reason, the timing's not right, et cetera. And so now what I do is I take a much lighter approach to everything I do. So I design the concept and then I validate the concept before I do any real work on it, which is so freeing because again, it it makes it fun. I'm like, oh, I wonder if this is gonna be the thing that, you know, that generates some interest or the thing that I could do for a little while. Um, so that's what I do with my the products and programs that I create. How I make decisions around which interim roles to do is so as an example, and this is gonna, you know, I I talked before about kind of a lot of complexity behind some things, then look simple. And that's the same as the way that I approach the interim roles. A few weeks ago, I woke up in the morning on a Tuesday and I thought, okay, my book is nearly done. I'm ready to start the launch process. So I should start thinking about my next interim role. And at lunchtime that day, I got a call from someone who I'd spoken to a year before. And he said, Hi, I'm just wondering about what you're up to at the moment because we're looking for someone to come in and do this six-month interim role. I was like, oh, amazing. Because I literally just thought about that this morning.

SPEAKER_01 26:50

I mean, you said you said you talk about woo-woo. There you go. What better example is there that there's a bit of woo in the world? You're like, think of something, and it just happens.

SPEAKER_00 26:58

Yeah. And so, you know, but when if we if we kind of break that down, I spoke to that person a year ago about a different thing which didn't go ahead. So every now and again I've kind of, you know, um liked something that they've um or interacted online, etc. Um, and I also have a few people that I keep in contact with. Um and I think that, you know, for me, for no for me, nothing's either or. So when I'm talking to, you know, people who are setting out in fractional or portfolio careers or solopreneur journeys, sometimes people have a very, they they think it's a very defined path. It's actually a few parts. And so it's kind of, you know, trying to line up what the different um avenues of opportunities might be. And then kind of working through, you know, does that fit for me? The the structure is does this fit with the timing for me? Um, you know, because I I kind of say, well, if I'm doing this now, I'm looking ahead to say, okay, for the next six months, is there anything that's going to stop this? Um, so that's one of the key decisions. The other is um, can I do this? I I'm always attracted to and I'm always called in for, you know, big challenging things. I prefer if those things were a little easier, but that's the kind of work that I do. You know, when we're talking about what are you known for? I'm that's what I'm good at. Yeah. So they're the things I get. So I I kind of assess what is the what's the weight going to be on me from an intellectual and a timing perspective. And does that fit with other things that I've got going on? Does it work from a financial perspective? Because that's the other lens that which you know I've already spoken about is very important. So I need to, I need it to be at the right level. And I no longer take things that are not because it doesn't, it just doesn't work. Um, because I've then I've then committed the time that I have to make that money to something that's not going to actually serve that goal. Um, and then I just think about some of the intangibles. So, you know, this the current role that I'm in, um I wanted to be back in the city a little bit. I haven't been worked in the city for a little while. So it's in the city, which is nice. I wanted it, um, I didn't want it to be fully remote because the last couple of roles I've had have been fully remote. Um and I find that I get a lot of energy from other people. I don't want it all the time, but I like to have some people I can interact with. Um, so I yeah, I kind of I've got a I've got a decision criteria, which actually I did write down right at the beginning of my journey. But now I just kind of I I kind of go quickly. So, you know, when that phone call came, I was thinking, yep, timing's right, money's right, challenge level is right, location's right, people seem pretty good. I'd been referred. Yeah. All you know, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick.

unknown 29:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:43

And I like how some of these things are fluid as well, actually. It's like circuit, like, you know, last few roles have been remote, so you want one in person. So these things don't have to be rigid and set in stone. It's like they can experiment, they're fluid, they can change. It's uh as a week, we could choose. And I think this is where people who do value freedom. It's like, yeah, actually, we can pick based on the moment, it doesn't have to be the same, you know, each time in a row. We can we we've got flexibility and fluidity there, which I think is uh really interesting. Now, one thing I think is uh you've mentioned a couple of times that I think it'd be great to talk a little bit about you're launching your book soon, and I imagine it's going to dive into many of these things, but I'm I'm just guessing I'd love for you to tell us a little bit about your book and what's what's it about, who's it for? And uh yeah, tell us uh tell us more.

SPEAKER_00 30:26

Yeah. So it's called Win the Night to Win the Day, Sleep Well, Work Better, Live Best. So it's written for people like us who are high performers who might be in corporate roles or might be, you know, doing portfolio careers or straddling the two. Um and it's a combination. So it started out because my because I've always had FOMO and so I haven't always slept as much as I should. I also referenced before that I've always worked, overworked. So, you know, 12 to 16 hour days all the time. And I just didn't understand the impact on me, on the people around me, on my present and on my future in terms of health, you know, um my ment, you know, um, the mental um load that I was putting on myself, etc. So a couple of years ago, my I kind of got to the point where my husband, who I love so much, he snores like a train, like so loud. And then our dog joined us in bed because we had um, we live in an inner city um warehouse, but some wild hares started living in the front of our garden. They attracted some foxes, and the foxes then attracted all the dogs in the neighborhood to start barking crazily. So I was up all night every night for a long time with my dog. So the only thing we could do is kind of have him in bed with us and hold him and stop him doing that. So, why this is the preface to the book is because I was lying awake thinking, I love my husband and love my dog, but I am literally going to kill them. Um, and so then I started experimenting with how am I gonna, how can I, you know, sleep better, how can I get myself to sleep more effectively, how can I make sure that my days are enabling me to sleep so I don't jump into bed, which is what I was doing, and then think, oh, now it's party time for my mind. So I set out to try to work that with that. So I've used um, you know, my 633 model is the basis of kind of setting up the year and setting up the day. But I also knew that I didn't know enough. So I did a survey for 250 people about their slept experience. I also went and sat on some streets with some signs and asked people about their experience, which is great. I then reached out to a whole lot of experts around the world around sleep and productivity. And I also then did a lot of research. And so all of these things have come together to sort of say, okay, um, there's a model of moving from sort of suboptimal to optimizing to optimized. So the suboptimal is kind of thinking through where are you now? What are the, what are the, you know, what's kind of keeping you stuck, what's keeping you where you are, and there's some tactics around that. The optimizing is the experiment. So the other thing that I did is I did um about 150 experiments. So, you know, what are some experiments that I undertook? I've also got a whole lot of exercises that you can try to work out again, for me, the the most important thing is what is your personal best. So my success, which I've already outlined, my success measures are going to be very different to yours or to somebody else's. So, you know, the the reason why the experimental approach and the the exercises are good is because they let you work out for yourself if these things work or not. So I did a whole lot of things, like simple things in terms of sleep, like, you know, we experimented with nose taping and mouth taste taping and all sorts of things. Those things, they don't work for me. I I'm claustrophobic. I never have blinds or um curtains. I don't like sleeping in the dark, even though the prevailing wisdom is that's a good thing to do. So I, you know, there's a whole lot of things there where you can kind of see, see what you could think about and then work that work that through for yourself and then optimize. So again, this is defining and designing what is the optimized version of your life based on thinking through where you are, you know, what could you try, what might your personal best look like, and then saying, okay, yeah, I think I've worked it out. So that's the book.

unknown 34:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:27

Amazing. I mean, it sounds amazing. I love that it starts with sleep because uh my early psych research was focused on sleep, and it's just so I you cannot emphasize enough how important. I mean, everyone looks to optimize all these other things. I'm like, have you started with your sleep? Because that's like that makes such a big difference. Um it's amazing that's where you start because I think it's such a powerful thing to get right, and especially it is so personal. I mean, you know, obviously learn all the stuff about circadian rhythm rhythms and whatnot. And I think even just understanding what what your natural biorhythms are, there's so much there. And I imagine building on top of that, everything else you'll cover will be um so insightful for many people. I'm thank thank you so much for coming on the show. I have also part way through when you were talking, I had a revelation myself to go. I actually I uh I'm I'm thinking in a little bit of a rigid way about some of these things. So I'm looking forward to getting off this call and just writing down some things to push my own thinking. So it's been a great conversation. And I've loved chatting with you and good luck with the with the launch. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 35:20

Thanks so much.

SPEAKER_01 35:21

Thank you so thank you much. Take care. Bye bye.