Viren 0:00

Welcome to the Values Lab, a podcast series for founders and portfolio career professionals seeking inspiration to live a more values-led life. And I am delighted today to kick off season two by welcoming Kame O'Keefe. And Kameh O'Keefe is a seriously playful brand strategist, and we're going to be talking about the value of joy today. And I first uh saw Kameh actually on TV on the TV show Gruin. A TV show I really love because I think it blends two things together. It's very, very funny, but it's also very, very insightful. And one of the things I'd noticed about Kame on the show is her comfort challenging people. And I and it's something I think we need more of in societies the ability to playfully challenge other people. We don't need to agree with everyone. It's one of the things I love about her approach, so which was really cool to see. And then I'd uh met Kame at an event, which was again challenging the status quo around how networking events should be run. And it was a very fun event to go to. So we're going to be talking about the value of joy today. Uh, welcome to the show. How are you doing?

Camey 1:02

I am very well. Thank you for having me.

Viren 1:04

All right, uh really looking forward to our chat because I think this value of joy connects to one of my own personal values of fun. So I'm really looking forward to exploring it in more detail. And I think I love starting off with talking a little bit about what joy means to you.

Camey 1:19

Um, I think there is a sense of um, it's twofold. One, I think joy, there is a lightness and sort of exuberance, so it's kind of um beak in its energy, but it can also be quite grounded and still. So what I love about joy is that it is inherently optimistic, you know, it is a positive um feeling, value, emotion, I suppose. Um, and I think it's really powerful in its um positivity and optimism.

Viren 1:51

Yeah, I love it. I love it how you've kind of gone, it can apply to both the big things and the small things. It's kind of it's quite versatile in how you can look at it. Um so this concept of joy, uh tell me more about when did you discover this? It was, it was something important to you. Do you remember a moment? Was it when you were younger or when you grew up? Yeah.

Camey 2:09

No, well, I'm going to, I actually brought a prop. I love it. I'm not sure if you can see this here. So when um you hit me up, I um thought, oh, how funny. I actually, in terms of values work, I'm pretty invested in it also around sort of my coaching and and how we approach working playfully. But I was really lucky because I was sent on a two-day workshop in a previous role. Um, and it was called, we did an exercise. It was run by um a body called Shine for Women. So it was all about women in leadership. And they had um a series, it was a two-day work uh uh conference and a series of workshops, and one of the workshops was called My Bigger Game. And it was about trying to articulate what was your big bet, like in terms of, you know, where did you want to put your energy in life to accomplishing like a really bold bet. And the exercise, I'll just sort of, you know, speak through this little card. It says, My top three values, my top three strengths, my biggest three achievements, and my biggest, my bigger game is X. Yeah. I'm not gonna go through the whole thing. But at the time, and this, I think I did this in about 2018, my top three values are joy, equality, and curiosity. And for me it's interesting because actually I think they're all components of play, which I guess is my guiding philosophy. But when I went back to look at this off the back of your email, reaching out, I was actually surprised to see joy there. Um wow, really? Yeah. Which is really funny, right? Because I think equality and curiosity, I was like, yeah, yeah, that that tracks. Um and another value that's really important to me is honesty. So this idea that we can actually be um frank and fearless in how we move through the world. So I it was it sort of struck me. I was like, oh, I wasn't expecting to see joining.

Viren 4:10

It's at the top.

Camey 4:11

Yeah, well, that's exactly it. And I really had to reflect on it because when, whilst it surprised me when I saw it, actually it really does make sense because at its core for me, what actually is powerful about play is that it is deeply joyful. Like it is fun and fulfilling and optimistic. That's where its power comes from. And so, you know, when you sort of when you have something played back to you, you're like, oh gosh, I'm surprised. But actually, I shouldn't be at all, because joy makes total sense. It is what I seek out in life, um, but also what I seek to contribute, but not in a superficial way. You know, joy, I think that's maybe the other sort of characteristic. There's depth to joy. You know, fun can feel um, I think it's super powerful, but maybe joy almost has that added layer of sort of um depth and um sincerity, perhaps. Yeah.

Viren 5:13

I like it's I think it's such an interesting one to explore because even I really liked your taglines, you know, seriously play seriously playful. Because I think those two words, I'm similar to you in that there's a there's a surface level when it comes to like fun, say for example, that a lot of people gravitate towards the surface level. I like I like really meaningful fun. And I think I can see where you're getting at with joy as well. There's a kind of depth to it, which um, you know, I I think is really I I personally also think is really important that that depth is what makes it kind of interesting. I so how did it uh I guess when you now think about you know that value and thinking a little bit about you you've come a well did you say that was that was eight years ago, that workshop?

Camey 5:52

2018, so yeah, it is. Eight years ago.

Viren 5:54

Yeah, you could both lucky, I think. And you've always said that sounds like you you've since then started your own thing. So now you've had the capacity to take this value, which was sounds like it was important then, but you've got a bit more scope and freedom now to play around with it. How have you kind of taken on that process of when you were in employment through to going out on your own? And how has this value shaped that kind of journey and your and your perspective?

Camey 6:19

Yeah. Well, I guess um when I was employed, so in full-time gigs, I think once I had a bit better understanding of what was a really key driver for me, I was like, oh, how can I bring that to be like more in the day-to-day? Often than at that point it was as a leader. So how can I show up in that manner and encourage people to also feel safe to do so themselves? Um, and that might have been not just strictly saying, oh, everyone has to be joyful. I mean that would be tedious. But I think this idea of like if that's a value that is significant to me, how can others also feel safe to live true to their values? So that's probably how it showed up. And I think um the sense of joy, I guess, because it is a fairly positive um expression, it tends to be easier, I think, for people to show up and and share of themselves. So um, but what I think once I understood it, I tried to look at okay, how does this inform play and working playfully? And where are the opportunities to um incorporate that in the current gig? So back then it was in advertising agencies leading client the client management function. And um when you're essentially like in a service industry, obviously allowing experiences to feel more joyful is like can only be a good thing for business. Yeah. People, I you know, I think people want to enjoy their work day. Surprise, surprise. So it, you know, it's um it's a real positive. You know, it can sort of actually make, I think, drive high performance and um better outcomes. So it was, it was, you know, really um useful. But whilst the value was joy, I think the expression was play and playful. So trying to create a more playful workplace. So um, over that last eight years, what I've done is tried to understand that um principle or philosophy as a practice. So there's an entire body of science around how play and play um principles actually allow us to perform at our best. And that's in both a kind of, I guess, a performance sense, which is what business likes to talk about, but um in a well-being sense, which was really important to me. Because I think that's where I first arrived at um play and that sort of as a guiding philosophy being important to me. Because if, you know, when I talked about yes, joy was the central one that we're sort of using as um an anchor for our discussion today, but the other two were equality and curiosity. Yeah. And for me, the ability to have those three present in a workplace, um, play was the sort of way in.

Viren 9:15

It's so interesting, like and and when you say it like that as well, because I I of I use a lot of play-based um techniques in my work. And I just see the it's such a I d I don't know what the if there's a better phrase, but it levels the playing field. It doesn't matter what team you're in, what seniority in, as soon as you kind of bring everyone in for a playful experience, it does create that joyful energy, it does create this sense of equality that everyone's playing off the off the same page, and people just get super curious. So I I kind of I could see how play anchors all these things. Um what do you see in your experience, the work that you do? What what you talk about the benefits, you know, and there's obviously the scientific stuff, but what is what's some of the stuff you tangibly see when you run work centered on joy and centered on play in the type in the type of things you do? What do you kind of experience firsthand?

Camey 9:58

Yeah, um one thing I notice is presence and connection. So I think um, you know, we're so busy and distracted in our work days. I think when you consciously cultivate sort of play conditions, it's about inviting people to be here in that moment so they are more present, which means actually as a team you can be more connected. So I think it is a far more um connected, therefore collaborative and um fruitful engagement whenever you can actually create those. So I've noticed it allows people, I almost feel like it allows people to pause, exhale, and actually enjoy the moment that they're in. Yeah. And so this idea that then they take more. I think they both contribute more and they take more from the experience. So they leave. The funny thing is, they actually leave lighter, you know, like they have, so they've come, they've done good work together, and then they leave feeling often energized because there is this sense of like you weren't sort of pulled in 17 different directions, actually, therefore, as a result, feeling like you really didn't accomplish anything because you sort of missed half of what was actually happening in the session, you know, and were drained by feeling like you're pulled in those other directions. Instead, you're actually in the moment connected with other humans, which is sort of like the primary motivation for me. I was like, the reason I went into advertising is it's a creative endeavor and it's a team sport.

Viren 11:39

Yes.

Camey 11:40

That was the big sort of pull. But then so much of what we put in place now pulls us away from that. You know, it's people hiding behind emails and Slack, busy, busy, busy work, not actually meaningfully connecting to actually build on each other's ideas and create something new. So for me, yeah, there is a real thing about play. You can't actually play if you're not present and participating. And so I love it as a um mechanism for encouraging that.

Viren 12:09

I love that. I love it how you've described it there as making people, like basically it makes people more present and that they can take in more and they can give out more. It's such a lovely way of looking at it. And I too very much have been pondering a lot about the kind of collective experience side of things, you know. Um I was even just thinking about today, like massive weekend of the movies, the box office, people coming in. This this year's been really good, and I just think people are wanting to kind of come together more. There's so many things that are distracting us and blocking us from connecting. And I think as you say it, I think this there's a I don't think we're actually tapping into the true power of collaboration, which is bringing people together to come up with new and unexpected things. There's a lot of just trying to coordinate and organise people, but actually the magic is in the collaboration and it's doing exactly as you said is yeah.

Camey 12:55

As a species, we're hardwired to play. And I'm probably gonna botch the analogy, but I remember it was in a book that I've read. But the you know, this idea of um as a species, I think the reason we became like the ultimate apex predator was because we were able to play well together. So we actually played better together. Part of that was storytelling, you know, but it's how we actually, you know, that actually feels very light and dark at the same time to be able to do that. Oh no, that's what I was laughing.

Viren 13:21

I'm like, uh, we're so good at hunting because we can like play. It's like Yeah.

Camey 13:26

So yes, dominating, actually. You know, yeah. So this idea that we were, we were better at it. We were able to connect and collaborate to actually, you know, ultimately probably have some not ideal impacts on on the wider kind of kingdom. But my point being, it was like we played to succeed and flourish. Um and so, you know, and it's innate in all of us that sort of um both ability but also desire to connect and um play with our fellow um humans.

Viren 14:00

It really, I think it is like something I've been trying more because I say my my take on it is is fun, and I was trying to think obviously been pondering a lot about how to how to bring fun in. And even just I think there's so many opportunities, even in daily conversations, to connect and be more playful and joyful and fun with others, and it doesn't have to be this massive thing. And I've just found it's such a good ripple effect. There's barely almost everyone actually just engages in it. As soon as you put the olive branch out there, people engage, and it's it's really cool. And it it's these small interactions can I think going back to how you originally described joy, it can be in the micro as well, and it doesn't need to be these massive things. Yeah.

Camey 14:35

Big time. I was laughing, just not laughing, um, when you said had the ripple effect. There is actually um an example I use to say to people, if you think of dogs in a dog park, so you know, when you see them sort of approach each other, they crouch down and you know, lean in sort of ears, is it forward? Yeah, like so and tail wagging. That's the play posture. And I feel like I say to people, if you particularly in say my role, that was actually client, you know, it's client relationship. And I encourage people to say, in your mind, always adopt the play posture. Yeah, obviously not literally. That would definitely be, I mean, you could try that, that would create a very interesting dynamic. But no, I think this idea of I always felt like almost the pricklier the person, the more I would assume the play posture.

Viren 15:31

Yeah, so you just go in that energy, you change the yeah.

Camey 15:34

Yeah. And I think because, you know, the science would suggest we are hardwired for it, so it is very difficult to resist. Um, now, obviously, there are probably sociopaths and perhaps extreme narcissists that can resist, but I have often found that you can diffuse tense situations by choosing to adopt the play posture rather than actually trying to meet that anger, aggression, or sort of, you know, often hurt, to be honest, or insecurity might be the emotion that's coming at you. And I had found, and to make this gendered for just a moment, I had seen examples of male leadership where it was like two people, you know, it's almost like two people wanting to demonstrate who could be more aggressive.

Viren 16:19

It's so much ego-driven. I'll say this, it's just driven ego, who's got the biggest ego? And it's just like it's a yeah, this is a good thing. And whereas I was yeah.

Camey 16:26

And it's so funny how quickly you can disarm that because it's very difficult for someone to attack some another person who is actually offering joy, you know, but assuming that play posture, it can be really, really powerful.

Viren 16:41

I uh I I love it. It's such a good energy to bring in and say difficult situations because just having dialing that play posture, dialing up that sense of joy, and you know, I think it's it's such a um interesting approach. There's a um and he's a FBI negotiator now, he's an author. I don't know, Chris Foss, and he's got this.

Camey 16:59

Yes, I've read it, the book. Ah, yes. Yeah.

Viren 17:01

And so he does what it says about curiosity. It's impossible to be curious and angry at the same time. And I think it's something like that. Again, I might have butchered his phrase, but it is that energy can um work really well at dissipating kind of negative tension and those kinds of things.

Camey 17:15

Well, it's interesting as well, because I was struck with in the intro when you said that you had observed that um the way that I would challenge others. Yes. And it's interesting because when you Yeah, but when I heard that playback, I was like, ooh, do I? Um but I think that has been probably that that is the play posture in action. Yeah. You know, now that I think about it, just in terms of the fact that you'd observe that, because it is for me always about entering into dialogue with that curiosity and sense of equality. Because I'm like, we no one's voice is more important or less important than the other. And so I hope that the person feels I'm like, I'm not contesting because I think I'm more right or more important. I'm genuinely curious to understand how we see things differently. And I think if you can bring that sort of, you know, if you approach it joyfully.

Speaker 3 18:07

Yeah.

Camey 18:07

And that the even that the exchange is joyful, you know, that that is that sense of play. That we go, hey, this this entire conversation is us kind of hopefully assuming the play posture with each other.

Viren 18:19

And that's definitely one of the things I liked about your approach, is it never seemed like you were trying to win the argument. It was just like you had a different perspective, and it was done in a very I think obviously the format of the show helps as well, but it's done in a very fun and jovial, jovial way. And I think I really like that because I think that's how we should be disagreeing. We should be doing it in a more joyful way. Looking, and I think it's not about being my opinion is right. It's that process, you say that collective process of sharing ideas and doing it joyfully and playfully, and you'll get a better outcome at the end. Yeah.

Camey 18:49

Well, that's what I was gonna say. That is how you get to a better place, right? Because it is that kind of um collective wisdom and being open to um shift your own views, is where we get to a better place. And you know, like how sadly is that needed now in the world? You know, we've really lost that ability.

Viren 19:08

We've completely lost, I think we've completely lost the ability just to hear even different discourse to what we agree without getting angry. So I think this is what's happening is we just get inflamed rather than I think leaning in and going, well, why why do you think why do you actually think that? It's it's uh it's fascinating. I don't I don't know how you can think like that, but how do you? Yeah. And approaching it with yeah, extra joy, extra curiosity, and a bit of a playful mindset, I think so important. Um so what would be some of your tips for living this value of joy? So for those that have maybe got a also got this value, or maybe they've just discovered, oh, this is one of my values. How would you what are some of the things you do that go ha this is a way to live in line with joy?

Camey 19:48

Oh, yeah. Um I've often thought, I guess it's true of any value. Um there is, I think it starts with self-awareness. Do you mean like you so self-awareness to understand why is this value meaningful to me? But then also self-awareness to actually do like a check-in, like, am I living true to it? You know, why does it light me up? Why do I feel um dark or heavy when I'm not living true to it? Um so I think self-awareness just generally is probably key to being um able to live your value. I guess for me, then what in terms of how do I live more joyously? I I don't know if this is like a tip because maybe this is annoying for people who are like, I'm not hardwired for this, but I am inherently an optimistic person.

Speaker 3 20:37

Yeah.

Camey 20:37

So, you know, I tend to believe things that will work out. And I also default settings seek to see the best in others. And so I I don't I don't know if that's helpful because if someone's like, well, I'm a deep pessimist, I'm not sure how I can be. But I think you can train yourself somewhat to look for that, you know, that idea of even if your default setting is to go to the negative, to spee that way, so it's a little bit more work for you. Can you then almost make that sort of like go, but what if, or flip the script? You know, this idea of actually just being a little bit more intentional. So to I guess it's a little bit, if you're not naturally wired that way, to force it to become a muscle that you flex on the regular. So if you can't help but sort of take the cynical stance or um just you know, uh are a bit sort of doom doom wired um to actually flip and say, but what is, you know, a a a more optimistic take on that um yeah, on that lens. What other ways are that that I um seek out joy or to play?

Viren 21:51

I think Are there are there things you do on a day to day basis, maybe? Is there are there things that you kind of almost make it I often talk about rhythms and rituals being really important or just like trying to Like bake it into how you do things. Are there just things that you do that you might consider? It's only a small thing, but it does bring you extra joy by doing it that way.

Camey 22:09

I'd say two things that then um it prompts that prompt me to reflect on being in nature brings me joy. Um so just yeah, getting outside and you know, touching grass, as they say, but actually just really kind of, yeah, feeling immersed in nature brings me joy. Um and then other good humans. You know, every time I, you know, you have a conversation with someone that you're just reminded, people are fucking awesome for the most part. And so I think that's a really great way to, for me, um, you know, probably doesn't come as a surprise, I'm an extrovert, I get joy from other people, hearing their perspectives, feeling their kind of um their even their highs and lows, honestly. It does it's not that actually it has to be that they're a super positive, you know, up and and buzzy person. I think it is that connection, that that sense of um understanding someone else and what they're going through for me is just it, yeah, it's a joy in the human condition. I I find that sort of yeah. So and getting outside of your own head and experience, I think um I find joyful.

Viren 23:24

I love it. I and um I you know this makes me think that both things you mentioned there that are about like real stuff, meeting real people or getting out to the reality and seeing the the real world and nature, and uh something I'm curious to explore is uh what role do you think uh technology and AI are playing to experience joy? Is it something you find is a detractor? Do you find it's an enabler? Because the things you mentioned to seek joy and nothing to do really with AI and technology, but they're so pervasive. What do you see as the role of those things in living a more joyful existence? Pro-con mixture? Yeah.

Camey 24:06

I would say if I'm thinking specifically of joy, it's probably a net detractor. Um and if I think about a lot of the reasons why, or what I've spoken to that I've, you know, are activities that fuel a sense of joy in my life, it is about feeling um present and deeply connected. And I don't think tech tools are best for that. I feel like it's like a is it a sim symalacrum? Like a false um alternative, I guess it's just. I'll have to look up this word.

Viren 24:41

That sounds like a super word.

Camey 24:43

I know. We're both gonna have to go. I wish I could have, I wish I could have just thrown it out there and rolled off my tongue. That would have sounded very clever. But no, we will look into that.

Viren 24:51

But now you're gonna interview it because no, no, actually it's this word, and it's not that.

Camey 24:55

And you pronounce it this way. Um but I feel like it feels like a poor substitute. That's the word I was looking for, people. Uh-huh. So this idea that it can feel like it's substituting. Or it's trying to suggest you can replace it, but it really is like a crappy substitute.

Speaker 3 25:14

Uh-huh.

Camey 25:14

And I was just actually thinking of something that was deeply um, I found deeply joyful this weekend. So I don't know if you know the musician Liore. He had an album over 20 or 25 years ago called Autumn Flow. And I remember I had it on, you know, repeat back then. Anyway, he just did a concert with a string quartet at a town hall here in um Melbourne. And I just remember leaving, like, I was almost like euphoric. Like, you know, the set the sense of joy that actually sort of like, you know, it pervades your cells. And I thought, you know, like you can listen to the album, and I'd been listening to it again a bit on um repeat in the lead up, just so, you know, memory line. And it you cannot compare the two. So, no, yes, you're playing it through Apple Music, and it's so you know, that's a digital substitute. Yeah, the quality, the fidelity becomes really good, but Oh, yeah, and but you can't experience it in the same way. Now, by the way, you can, I think, have joyful experiences in your lounge room dancing to to your favourite tunes, but how that gets amplified or how much richer that is when it's in real life with other humans, just you know, there's a phrase that collective effervescence.

Speaker 3 26:28

Yes.

Camey 26:29

That I think is so, so powerful. And so for me, there is something about um IRL that, you know, that does it it hits harder than I think tech, you know. And there's lots of other reasons why, you know, I could run, but I think that there are ways that tool like, you know, I look at the other two values that I touched on in terms of equality and curiosity. I do think there are elements that obviously tech that is an enabler of some of that. Um it can allow you to I guess play with others that you might not have been able to physically access. So I'm not saying it's all negative, but on balance, I think as it relates to joy, I think joy is um I think the human component experienced in real life is is hard to substitute.

Viren 27:23

I think it's yeah, you know, even when you were talking, I was just thinking about peak joy. It's like, yeah, I love going to music gigs. Like sports is another where you kind of get together and you're all on the same team and the joy of your team scoring. Like my some of my peak memories are my team winning and me watching with fellow fans, and it's like that energy and joyfulness, it's like at its peak, and it's you cannot it can't you can't match that by not being in together in that same environment.

Camey 27:50

Well, I was thinking about that. Isn't it interesting? Because, say, the World Cup just recently, all the clips that were flying around the internet with, you know, uh like Haaland or people, you know, the rowing in tramps and or you know, it I I feel like it is like it's lovely to see it on the internet. It does, it is heartwarming. But gosh, how much more of like wouldn't you rather be in that tube? Yes, absolutely being one of the people rowing or witnessing it.

Viren 28:16

Um hearing it and feeling it, all the senses. I think that's the other part. It's all the senses, they get activated.

Camey 28:22

Yes. Of late we talk a lot just in terms of um embodied versus disembodied, and I think the challenge with tech is that it is a disembodied experience. So, you know, the it and and we are the more we are retreating to screens and sort of solo endeavors online, we are at risk of sort of spending more and more of our time disembodied. And so I think joy is um a value best experienced um for reals.

Viren 28:50

Yes, sort of yeah, online.

Camey 28:53

Not to say you can't, but I reckon it's better.

Viren 28:55

But where is it better? Yeah.

Camey 28:57

Yeah, exactly.

Viren 28:58

It is um I think it's that this these all things are curious. Even going back to your earlier point about disagreement and arguing and bringing joy. I think again, ten tendency is like instead of having a conversation and disagreeing with someone, I'll go to my AI and try and figure out what's the best way to say this thing. Yes. It's like we're just avoiding some of those things that will mute the I think joyful, they'll mute the joyfulness of an ex potential joyfulness of an experience and make it shades of beige. Um Yeah. Now, something new I want to try for this season is the rapid fire round. Because I think uh so I'm going to ask you four questions here around the value of joy and and what or who embodies this value of joy? And the first one I've got is who is a like a famous person who you think is is like when you think of this person, they like there's they're joyful, that they're they're joyfulness embodied.

Camey 29:49

Um so probably the first person that comes to mind is Amy Polar. Yeah. And I hadn't thought about this afterwards, but did she, is she actually the emotion joy in that the Pixar and the book?

Viren 30:00

Oh, that would be hilarious. I think you might be right, yes.

Camey 30:03

But the reason I thought of her initially was that she um talks a lot about play because she comes from a strong improv background.

Speaker 3 30:14

Yes.

Camey 30:14

And even if you um listen to her podcast, Good Hangs, so I mean, that's an inherently joyful, you know, she's kind of um decided that rather than all this kind of like bro supplement chat, supplement-sponsored chat, she's just here for good hangs, you know, this idea. And that's inherently a joyful proposition, but she talks a lot throughout her, you know, when people are in play. You you can tell that she sort of has has a very sort of rich understanding of play, and she and she's you know, um embodied that in her own professional career. Um so yes, I think Amy Polar, but the the fact that she might actually be an animated character is a just very gold for me. Yes.

Viren 30:54

Bonus points. Yeah, it is true. I love uh I've heard her talk also about the and and uh about the show and how it's just this concept of bits and building on what other people are saying in a really playful way. It's really cool when you see it in action. Yes, it's really good.

Camey 31:08

Uh yeah well she is master at improv, so yes, you can see how she plays well with others, I think. Yes, yeah.

Viren 31:15

It kind of invites it in and creates that environment for people to play. It's really cool. Um, a movie or TV show that you kind of go, this is again joyfulness and epitome of joyfulness.

Camey 31:26

So interestingly, um Hunt for the Wilder people. Oh, yes, yeah. Yes, by Taika Waititi, who I think is also probably someone who embodies joy. If you actually see how he moves through life and approaches creativity. But it's interesting because um, you know, I think with Joy, it isn't about um, you know, like maniacal happiness. Yeah. So that movie, I mean, I think maybe I'm also cheating because I think it would be one of my all-time favourite movements. But just because it's it was also been in the news recently because Sam Neill passed away, but I just, you know, seeing snippets of the film, I was reminded by the fact that I saw that in the cinema and was struck by the fact that I was like, I don't think I've enjoyed a film this much in however long. I remember being struck by that at the time, and that really stayed with me. And I think it was because I said I equal parts belly laughed, you know, that really, and also cried with like kind of, you know, real sort of sadness. And I think the ability to elicit that in a film is such a sort of skill, but it was just a joy to watch that film. Like I just um, you know, even now, I can't remember, I think we re-watched it on a plane, yeah, and I was like, my God, I love that film, and I think it is joyful.

Viren 32:51

Yeah, um amazing. I do think, yeah, as I say, it is an art to be able to create all those emotions, but I also feel like some of our favourite films, we often they're our favourites because they connect with our values. So I I think there's uh usually a bit of a connection there to why it resonates. A book or framework that you kind of come back to when it comes to joy.

Camey 33:10

Okay. Forever the suit. I've I've come prepared. So I've got the sun chip. I love it. Yes, yeah. There's a couple I prepared earlier.

Viren 33:18

I love it.

Camey 33:18

Yes. So the first one is almost like a quintessential tome. So this is, you know, like if you just want to wrap your head around um play as a principal, um, Dr. Stuart Brown. So he's kind of like, so I recommend that. Um, and then the second one, play full by Kaz Holman. And I think, but in this book particular, in particular, um, there is this real sense of seeking out what brings you joy. Because I guess that's a component of play. Like in order to play, you know, there has to be a sense of um fun, flow, and mastery in what you're doing. And so you can't do that if you don't get joy from it. You know, if it's not enjoyable, it's not play. Um I would argue that that's it's um a chore. So yeah, there are two books that I can recommend.

Viren 34:10

I love it. I will have to, I've read the first, but I'll have to check out the second. That looks uh and it looks fun as well with the cover. And lastly, a song, a song that brings you joy or kind of reminds you of joy.

Camey 34:20

Yes. So um this one's funny because I actually afterwards thought, oh, what are the lyrics about? And it's actually quite dark, the lyrics. But um, it's Buttons by Sia. And um, the reason that brings me joy is just like in the audio, the sound, the energy, it's quite sort of quirky, it's got a funny rhythm, it's sort of rich and invites you in, you know, so sonically. But then actually, I think it's about like really toxic relationships.

Speaker 3 34:49

Oh, is it actually the meaning of it?

Camey 34:51

Yeah, so the lyrics, if you actually look at the um the meaning, um, it's not necessarily joyful. But it sounds joyful. Yeah, exactly. And that's kind of what I think I like about it. It is the idea that you, you know, the ability to play with difficult topics allows you to actually kind of like find peace or even like, you know, um to sit with things that might otherwise be uncomfortable. So play is really powerful in that way. Like that's why they use it as a therapeutic tool. You know, there are play therapists, particularly with children. It's the idea that you can sort of navigate through really difficult things by using play as a tool to sort of find your way there. Um, and so I think, yeah, the the song, if you listen to it, it sounds super kind of joyful, but actually the lyrics are kind of heavy.

Viren 35:42

It's interesting to say that as well, because I think a lot of stand-up comics say this. That you know, it's comedy is a great way to explore some of the darker, heavier topics in a interesting way and unpack them in ways that you can't really through other forums. Um I think it's yeah.

Camey 35:57

Yeah, it'd be much harder.

Viren 35:58

Much um now, speaking of kind of joy and play, I know you've got your own podcast series. Play it forward. Do you want to tell us a little bit about your podcast series and also anything else that I guess you're you're working on that's taking your fancy at the moment that you want to share with everyone that's kind of front of mind for you.

Camey 36:14

Okay, so um play it forward was um an effort to try and talk to people who have pursued a job in a creative field. So for me, um, you know, it's it's one of the benefits of play and and what play can help us be better at is creativity. And I think that that, you know, um selfishly is something I really enjoy and and chose to sort of pursue a career in that through advertising. But I know how much joy it brings others, you know. I think creativity is a form of self-expression, it allows us to actually show up as ourselves and share that with the world. So I'm kind of keen for more people to feel comfortable to do that. And I think one of the ways that um we can get more comfortable is to hear from others, learn from their experiences. Um, I think both to feel less alone in it, but to also recognise, you know, to literally to take on the learnings, to go, okay, that's you know, that's something I could do, get more of in my life, and that might help, or oh, that feels like something to avoid because that clearly was a disaster. So, you know, yeah, so and it's just also an excuse to have conversations with interesting people, interesting creative people. So that's play it forward. Um, and you know, for me as well, it was play for me to go and give that a crack, you know, because there's definitely um learnings, you know, in terms of what I need to get better at or what I do differently next time. But yeah, to even kind of take tackle what I guess is a form of creative endeavor and treat it like a play project.

Viren 37:43

I love it. Well, it's been so good to have this chat. I know it's there's some shared, I think, concepts and uh um uh principles underneath some of the things we talk about. But I love some of the things you've shared, which you'd like uh I'm definitely noodling on uh some of those. The one that's really stood out to me is this the the power of play to make people present. I think that's such a that's such a powerful uh frame for me. So I'm I'm gonna be noodling on that plus uh much more from this chat. Um but thanks so much for coming on and thanks so much for kicking off uh season two. Uh it was my absolute pleasure.

Camey 38:13

Thanks for inviting me.

Viren 38:14

Thank you. See ya.

Camey 38:15

Bye.