Viren 0:00

Welcome to the Values Lab, a podcast series for founders and portfolio career professionals seeking inspiration to live a more values-led life. And today I'm delighted to welcome Jackie Maloney onto the show to talk about the value of honesty. And I originally met Jackie, and I'm trying to pinpoint the year, but it was a couple of years ago. I know it was after COVID, you know, that wind weird window of time. And we met on a group coaching program around uh copywriting. I've kind of uh uh followed each other since. And I've loved I I love the types of messages you share on your socials. I actually I really value you you you share openly, you share honestly, which I think is quite interesting. It's it does come through in the content you share. And I love that you share about the highs of lows of life and business, and I think you're very open about um both sides. One of the things I really enjoyed reading is the wins that your clients have with you and how you kind of you revel in their in their wins, and I I love how you um unpack some of that as well. So I love following your socials, and I thought I'd love to bring you onto the show and unpack because you've got so many different facets of your career and life and things you're working on. I thought I'd love to explore that with you. So welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_04 1:09

Thank you for having me. I'm very excited. It's always really interesting getting like that bio, that intro, and you think, oh, okay, I'm actually not too bad.

Viren 1:16

No, not too, I'm not too shabby. I do a few courts.

SPEAKER_05 1:20

I yeah, I scrub up pretty well when you think about it like this.

Viren 1:24

No, it's great. I loved your motto that you shared, clothes mouths don't build empires, because I guess that's got so many interesting facets to explore in in and of itself. So I'm looking forward to talking more about this value of honesty. And I'd love to start with, you know, this word honesty, everyone probably has a no notion of what it means to themselves, but what does honesty mean to you?

SPEAKER_04 1:47

Probably the opposite of what you first assume. So I don't necessarily mean you've got to tell each other the truth all the time, and that's the biggest scale of honesty. But when you sent through the questions, and we were chatting about this before you hit record, so let's bring it into combo now. But I thought I had an idea of what my values were. And I was just like, Yeah, no problems. I'm just gonna sit there and have a chat with Virin. And I had to stop and think about well, hang on a second. I've just experienced a milestone birthday, so I turned 40 last year, and it really was the slap in the face, Virin, that I probably needed. I was not ready to turn 40. I did that whole list of, but I haven't done this and I haven't done this. And 40 means something. 40 means we're halfway or we're past it. Or, you know, I'm watching some of these younger entrepreneurs and coaches just killing it on socials and they're in their 20s and 30s, and you think, maybe I'm past it. I'm 40 now. I'm past it. So I really sat with what my values are now. And I think being a speaking coach, maybe I should talk about authenticity and communication, all these other lovely values. And I pulled up a list from Brene Brown actually in one of her Dare to Lead programs, and she had a PDF of all of the values. And so I was scanning through them and I went, no, no, no. Honesty. And honesty for me has been that line in the sand of being honest with myself about where I'm at. And having those honest conversations of if I wasn't ready to turn 40, well, what do I need to change? What needs to, who do I need, like, how do I need to change in order to be this honest version that I really wanted for myself? And so that's where this value of honesty came up. And I thought, we're gonna chat about this. That is it. That just it hit me right in the feels, and I went, yep, that's my word, that's my value.

Viren 3:44

Yeah, uh, it's it's so interesting hearing about that, that reflection, the process you went through, because I think it is one of those years, people think, uh, my values, I kind of know what they are, they they're they're static or they're there. And we sometimes get to a point in life and go, actually. And 40 is such a good argument. I turned 40 a few years ago. And it is, you kind of do take take stock a lot of that. It's a significant milestone to go, hmm, is my life going the direction I want it to go? Um, and often we start off with those things that it's I'm not here, I haven't done this, there's people that are more successful. But I think but once we start, we go beyond that, and it's sometimes difficult to get beyond that, we actually go, what are the actually the values and things that are really meaningful for me? I think we can have a better conversations with ourselves. And I like that you challenge what the assumption would be when someone says honesty is your whole thing is about transparency and just having honest conversations all the um uh being honest all the time and truthful all the time. But actually, I like that you said it's honest conversations with yourself, and I like that uh spin you um you have put in into it. And in in looking back, so you kind of went through the process, you landed on us honesty, and obviously the word um had a bit of pull for you. Kind of looking back through your life and maybe significant other significant transitions, can you see where honesty's played played a role in decisions you kind of made to go you've you know made that decision because it aligns well with the values, or times where maybe you've gone, ah this this situation didn't sit well with me because it went against the value of honesty. Have you in thinking back through, has there moments that you kind of go, okay, this explains a lot?

SPEAKER_04 5:15

It it probably comes up more with my it's it's come up more recently for me. And having that huge reflection point of turning 40 and being honest about yes, certain things in my life, but also the things that are holding me back, whether or not they're people, their mindset, they're my business, there's distance, whatever it we were talking before about. Whenever anyone asks where I'm from, I'm thinking to myself, have how long have you got? Because I've moved around a lot. And there's been this huge reflection piece of if I'm really honest with myself about what it is that I want, where are relationships holding me back? And do I need to say goodbye finally? And it's having that, and and it sucks, it hurts because there are people that are close to you that you kind of just brought along for the ride, or maybe it's family, so you know it's blood. But thinking forward, and as you said before, about where am I in life and what do I really want? That honest conversation thinking I don't need this person in my life anymore.

SPEAKER_02 6:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 6:25

Or maybe it's in business. I've been slogging it so hard because I've got this one way that I want to do business. But if I'm really honest with myself, is that the way that I want to keep showing up? And we talk about authenticity way too much. It's the buzzword, it has been for a little while now, and I'm kind of over it. But I think if you strip back honesty, if you strip back um your authenticity for a second, people just like, yeah, I want 50,000 followers on Instagram and I'm gonna do this on LinkedIn, and I I'm gonna be authentic for the first time. But I often ask my clients, well, is that what you really want? Like if you were honest with yourself, getting to 50,000 followers on any platform requires a version of you that frankly, and I'm being honest here, I don't see.

SPEAKER_01 7:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 7:12

You're not the person to show your face on camera. You're not someone that posts every day. You're quite happy to sit in the background. I don't think you've posted for six months. So for you to suddenly turn around and go, Well, this is what I want, I'm gonna show up authentically. I think I need you to be really honest with yourself and go, is that what you want? And if the answer is no, and I think your gut will tell you. I mean, our guts are informing us about things every single day, whether we listen to it or not, is a completely different thing. But when you truly come back to, oh, okay, that's not what I want. And so it's this tug of war with self more than with others, I think.

Viren 7:50

That I mean, that's so interesting as well, because I think I look at it from two perspectives, even that example you've shared of someone that wants to get, you know, to that 50,000, it's kind of actually pushing them to honestly reflect. And then that word honest comes up again. It's like, what do you actually really, really want? But I like in that you're it sounds like you're pretty comfortable giving that honest feedback to the person to I get in that moment to kind of go, hey, but I've from what I've seen, I just don't think this this is a reality. And I like I and it's I think it does take, you know, honesty and courage to kind of actually have those pointy conversations with people. Um which I guess is part and parcel of of what you're doing, but uh every every kind of I guess coach would have a different approach, and I I guess is what's standing out to me is that comfort in not just asking the challenging questions, but also calling out things that you're seeing sounds like something you kind of that that makes up your your approach.

SPEAKER_03 8:45

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 8:46

I we were brought up to sugarcoat things in terms of feedback.

SPEAKER_02 8:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 8:53

And when I started really diving into my acting career, and I'll be on I I got into it late. I will call it late. I sort of started training around that 23, 24-year-old mark. And you think of some of the child stars, they were already winning Oscars at that time. So late at 23, 24 was my is part of my story. But the feedback that I've received was in the moment because it had to be.

SPEAKER_02 9:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 9:21

If you're on set, we don't have time to sugarcoat my last performance in that take, right? There's a time, there's a clock, there's sorry, there's there's money involved here. There are people waiting around for you. I can't then go take that feedback, process it, journal about it, think about it, work on my mindset, do a meditation, and then come back and do the next take. So it has created quite thick skin in terms of I would just prefer that direct feedback in the moment. Now, direct doesn't mean it needs to be hurtful or aggressive. I've found what I think is a really great sort of way of this tough love feedback. Because, and I pride myself on this, I I call myself stage mum. Like I will be your number one supporter, but I will also push you to limits you didn't expect to get from me in a coaching situation because I do want the best for everyone and I want people to shine on stage. And if I think that there is something that could be said in the moment that's just going to elevate you and you'll take off, of course I want to do that. But it's a work in progress and not everyone reacts the same way to that kind of feedback. So you really do have to learn, and it is give and take. Uh, an incredible book that I've read recently is called The Culture Map by Erin Meyer. And if you haven't read it, oh, coach, if you're in a team, if you're a leader, I just implore everyone to read this book because it really puts into perspective how people from different cultures prefer to receive feedback. And it puts it on a scale and sort of we sit somewhere skew if to the left for Australians. But if you've got people from sort of beautiful Asian countries, that public feedback is almost like torture to them. It is the worst thing that you could possibly do. So they require you sort of pulling them aside at the end when no one else is around and saying, cool, this is the feedback I need to give. This is what we need to work on, versus in the moment, like the Germans will just tell you to your face all the scandal, all the Scandinavian countries, as you can imagine. It's direct feedback, it's public, everyone hears it, and they go, Yeah, that's just how we operate. So that's been a fantastic book that I've read literally last month. So I would have that on my list if anyone's when whoever is listening to read that book, it's been phenomenal for me.

Viren 11:40

And it's so funny you mentioned that because I've literally like just this week, when me and my wife have been having some banter about me not being direct enough in my feedback because she's more direct, and I like more subtext. I'm kind of like, hey, you know, open substuffs more open to interpretation. So we've been we've been having a bit of a laugh about that. Every time I give some feedback, that's I think it's direct. She's like, it doesn't make it's not direct enough. I'm like, you're too direct. You need more subtext than something that's in a yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:04

Yes, exactly. Some people they're just like, oh, you could have delivered that a little bit more gently. And I went, yeah, maybe I could.

SPEAKER_05 12:10

But I think your wife, I give your wife a copy of this book. I think she'll love it.

Viren 12:14

She'll have a have a good, I think she'll have a good book as well. Yes, highlight this.

SPEAKER_04 12:19

This is exactly what VRN does. This is what I do. And see, it's perfect, babe.

Viren 12:23

It makes sense. Yeah. It makes sense. Um I I there's a couple of things that I really like. Firstly, I think I think this is what I was getting at earlier when I like the wins that you share, because you often will share the wins and a little snippet from the person. And in that, I can see that you've given them some really pointy direct feedback that's helped elevate their performance. I think it's really, it's amazing because I think that's the skill. If you could do it in a way where the person takes it on, it does elevate. Like I think my a lot of my background is sporting. So I think in the sporting world, the acting world, like it's the feedback is it's in the moment, it's direct. You need to take it on quickly. There's no time to, as you say, go through this whole process. You just take it on and you move with it. And I think it's it's so interesting the learnings we can get from those different environments that are, I would say, very performance-oriented environments. As you mentioned, you've got a lot of things in in the uh world of production. The the the clock's ticking, the time's ticking, money's ticking, people are waiting. Sometimes the conditions are, you know, evolving and you you haven't got time, you've got to move fast. And so, yes, I can imagine that has shaped your view. And the other thing I like is you you kind of mentioned that it's not necessarily like not not it's not everyone's cup of tea, essentially. But I I one of the things I really believe in when we have are strong with our values, we lean into them, and especially we embed them into our business, is that they attract the right kind of people and they repel the other kind. So the people that don't want honesty, they're probably not, I'm just guessing, they're probably not the the best fit. But the ones that really want to elevate their game and get that tough uh feedback in aid of their performance and them improving, you'd be the right person to come to. And I like when values actually create that that tension. Um and I so I'd love to kind of explore for that, how is that how does that work for you? How do you kind of figure out the people that do have the capacity to take on board the feedback in the way in which you deliver it and that fit? What what is there a process that you go through, or do you find you just attract the kind of person that's ready for it? How does that work for you in your business and bringing in the right people?

SPEAKER_04 14:24

I hate to tell you, but there's no process. I believe wholeheartedly that I have been in the business of people watching for so long now. And it's never really about what the say, what they say. It's never about the words that they say because it's like you just mentioned before, it's all about subtext.

SPEAKER_01 14:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 14:45

And it's a change in tone for me. It's a body language, it's a shift in their shoulders or a twitch in their eye that I I can read it and say, great, the words that you're saying do not match everything else that you are projecting and communicating with me, for lack of a better term. And so there's no process, but I think when you watch people enough and you can see these cues and you can see how people react to things, that's where you pick up these moments of great, I know exactly what Vera needs, and then I'll communicate with someone next to you. We've just done the same project, and they will react a very different way with their body, with the tone in which they're using and responding to me, with maybe some. I had a coaching call yesterday with a gentleman and I had been working with his wife for two and a half years. And so she said, You've got to work with Jackie. And he was really challenged by some of the questions that I was asking. And even though it was on Zoom, his entire body language was saying, Nope, I don't want to do this, I don't understand, I don't see how this is gonna work for me. And in that moment, I had to shift. I had to be that chameleon, I had to match his energy, I had to match his tone, and I had to reassure him with storytelling and examples. And then it was that mic drop moment for him where he thought, you've just made a really great point. And then he said, uh it's exactly that. You're right. Yeah. And so it's this inner fight and conflict with yourself first. It's like, how do I approach this? And so I don't ruffle feathers further, or I'm not sort of, I guess, I'm not cowering to them either and making me a pushover. So yeah, it's just a fine balance. But the more you watch people, yeah, it's just it's an it's an underrated skill that I think everyone should have more of.

Viren 16:38

Yeah. I think that tension is so interesting between, you know, we've got strong values, we want to embed them, and then we get a little bit of pushback. So like mine one's fun. So I want to push the fun dial with a lot of work that I do, but sometimes there's just not a readiness for it. It's like, well, how much do I pair it back so that I'm still being true to my values and what I want to build, versus something that's that's, you know, it it matches what the client needs and where they're at. And I don't want to take it too far back because then that portrays what I'm about, but understanding that not everyone wants the full whatever the value is, the full fun, the full honest experience, and it's kind of finding that that mid middle ground. I also find it really interesting what you just mentioned there, a lot of that reading of expressions and watching people being such a key skill. And I'm imagining, is that something you picked up in the acting world? Is it something you'd always had and refined it through acting, or is it something totally different that you've just been fascinated in? Where did you pick up this skill to read the kind of, I guess these micro expressions and what people are saying and how they land the honest or how they respond to the honest messages and what they what your feel engages for that?

SPEAKER_04 17:40

Yeah, I think it's a little bit of everything, to be honest. And there's there's this joke in the acting industry, and every time I would introduce myself at networking events as I was sort of stepping my dipping my toe into the business world, and I would introduce myself and say, Hi, I'm Jackie, and they'd say, What do you do? And I said, I'm an actor. And that immediate reaction, and it was different from every single person I, you know, said that in front of. Some people would be like, Oh yeah, what have you been in? Or, Oh my God, that's so exciting. Like, I wanted to be an actor when I was growing up. So you've got these polarities in how people respond to you. But there's this running joke that when you s when someone says to you, Oh, I'm an actor, you should say to them, So what restaurant do you work in?

unknown 18:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 18:30

And as much as it hurts and it digs at the heartstrings or burns at the heartstrings, sorry, it's true. And so I really do think that it's a balance of, well, me being an empath first and foremost, I can see what people need well before they need it. And I would do my absolute darn as I'm sort of ex-people pleaser now, but I can see what they need before they need it. But being in hospitality for as long as I was alongside my acting career, I'm anticipating what that person, that customer needs before they know that they need it. And so I'm always looking for those cues. I'm not hearing what they're saying, I'm hearing how they've said it. And I think to myself, okay, great, they're not 100% certain. What do I need to do, save, make them believe so that they feel 100% in the decision that they've made? So I really do think it's a mix of my general personality being an empathetic person and wanting everyone to be comfortable, happy, secure, fed. I'm a feeder. Being in hospitality for so long and anticipating people's needs, and then the craft of acting and how much we say by not saying a word at all. So yeah, I think it's a bit of a mix of the three.

Viren 19:42

It's um you mentioned there you're an ex-people pleaser, and I guess immediately what came to mind is how was the people pleasing and the honesty, how was that kind of congruent? Because I imagine there's times as well where it's people please, we don't want to say the honest thing because we don't want to offend them. And I was just I immediately my I was just curious around how did you balance the things? Is that one of the reasons you're no longer a people pleaser? It kind of was not congruent with the value. Uh tell me a little bit more about you.

SPEAKER_04 20:08

Yeah, I mean, we've said we've sort of chatted about this before. It's just you might have a set of values, but we will outgrow them.

SPEAKER_01 20:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 20:15

And I really do think this obsession with honesty and the way that we've chatted about it so far is has been the driving force as to why I consider myself an ex-people pleaser now.

SPEAKER_02 20:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 20:27

Because I don't want to pander to people and I don't want to give more of myself and my own energy just to make others happy. I've got to do it in a way that feels really good to me. But I'm not going to tell you that that was an amazing performance if I just don't think it was.

SPEAKER_01 20:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 20:42

Uh when I was acting, I would have people come to me and say, Oh, you know, can you get me an intro with your agent? Because that relationship building is huge in our industry, much like it is with many industries. And I would have to say to them, I said, I'm sorry, I don't think you're ready. And that is a huge shock to the system because you've got someone who you think is your friend, but it's also my reputation on the line to my agent. If I just suggest anyone and everyone, they have to sit there and watch tapes and then they have to say, Jack, they're not ready. And you know that. And I said, Yeah, but I just I didn't want to be the bad guy. I'm really happy to be the bad guy if that's what it takes. But it's always from a place of love and truth. And maybe 10 years ago, if you said that to me, I would have taken it really badly and I would have been offended and I would have been annoyed. Now I think to myself, great, what do I need to go and do in order to get your recommendation, in order to get your blessing, in order for you to advocate for me? I'm obviously not doing enough, so I've got work to do. So yeah, it's been a huge shift to me shift for me in the last couple of years. So that people pleasing was definitely not when I really honored the value of honesty, whereas now it's Just at the forefront. And so I can confidently say ex people pleaser.

unknown 22:05

Yeah.

Viren 22:06

I love it. I guess I'm interested to know this value of honesty. And there's obviously a lot of your work is focused on storytelling. And I'd love to understand the interplay between those two things because you know, people often, as you say, they talk about authenticity, they talk about vulnerability. And I think these terms sometimes get conflated, and some people assume it's all about being totally transparent, honest, open all the time. And I my feeling is I don't think it's that. But can you tell me about your perspectives on that interplay between honesty and storytelling and how the right dose of honesty makes for better stories? And yeah. I'd love to know what your thoughts are on how that value plays in with some of the content of the work that you do.

SPEAKER_04 22:47

I think we have really blurred the lines between honesty and authenticity. And I think further to that, being authentic does not mean you have to show every aspect of yourself online. And I would argue even further that we are really in this time and in this wave of show boating. And it's the people that show every aspect of their lives that are getting that feedback. They're getting the followers, they're getting brand deals, they're getting this, they're growing on LinkedIn. Suddenly they're now being asked to fly to particular events and talk about their growth on LinkedIn, etc. And they're yeah, it's show boating. There's part of me that thinks, oh, I do that. I just don't create a video about it, and I don't put it on YouTube, and then I don't go and do stories about how amazing this thing it is that I did. And so yeah, ah, there's again, we talk about tension.

SPEAKER_02 23:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 23:50

People think that that's what is required. And then I think to myself, yeah, sure, but you look at some incredible coaches on Instagram, and they've got less than 10,000 followers. They're not showing us every element of their life. They're not crying on social media, they're not doing any of these things. I know they're doing seven figures.

SPEAKER_02 24:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 24:10

So again, coming back to honesty, and I don't want to keep abusing this word, but it feels like it's right for the conversation, is what do you want? Because as we said before, to grow to 50,000 followers plus, there is an element of you that does have to show up and does have to bear your soul and show every element of your life because that's what people gravitate towards. Or do you want to live that life where people come to you because they connect with your storytelling or your content or the way that you do live a life that means I don't have to bear my soul and I don't have to share everything? Because yeah, that'll be, I guess, the the indicator of which way you need to go because both require you to be very different people or very different versions of yourself, sorry. But yeah, I just I feel like there's a lot of showboarding going on on social media right now, and it's the people who are I don't want to say barking the loudest, but I guess they are. And it's working for them in terms of success, but again, what is your version of excess is what I would challenge you with.

Viren 25:17

Yeah, I I love that because I know there's a lot of people that are just really they're stuck in terms of their relationship with social media and how they should be showing up. And so you like I know I I don't know when I've spoken to people about this, it's like they go through points where they share more, they share less, and it's just I think people and I coming back to that question of that on having that honest conversation about yourself and what kind of business do you want to build, how do you want to build it? And and I think starting with some of those conversations and then figuring out how socials fit in, I think is a it's the better way to go and having some of those tougher, tougher conversations with yourself. Um Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 25:53

It's just like could you be that person that posts four times a day, seven times a week? Me? No. No, no. The answer is no. So, okay, great. I've got to look at how I'm gonna do things my way. And I think that is the most important thing.

Viren 26:08

Totally. And I go and I know so many people that do, as you mentioned, they've got successful businesses, less presence on socials, but they're out having coffees almost every day. Now, as I say, as Ambi, but I couldn't do that version. But it's it's it's finding the way that works for you by having those honest conversations with yourself, so important. Now, a new thing I've been introducing in season two, and it's been a lot of fun is the rapid fire round, which is four questions around who or what embodies this value of honesty. And the first question the question is who is a famous person that you think embodies honesty?

SPEAKER_04 26:41

Anne Hathaway.

Viren 26:42

Anne Hathaway. Of the moment, yes. And tell me more.

SPEAKER_04 26:46

Of the moment. And look, again, very interestingly, she was absolutely capitulated after she had huge success when she was younger, winning Oscars, having, but then just having a terrible time of this public image of her. And they called it Hatergate or Hathagate in terms of they just hated Anne Hathaway. And I just love that she has stayed true to herself. She's been honest. I want to be an actor, I'm gonna be successful. She is now promoting five films this year. It's the most film she's ever promoted in a single year in her life. She's pregnant with her third child and she's 43 years of age. She is the epitome of this is what I want. I'm honest with myself about what it is. F whatever's happened in my past, I'm going for it. And wow. And we are just all so lucky to be in the era of Anne Hathaway because it is phenomenal to watch.

Viren 27:40

Amazing. And what a great example. I love I love this rapper around it's so interesting. Perfect. This is a what a perfect response. Um, a movie or TV show that embodies honesty.

SPEAKER_04 27:51

Ooh, that was another really good one that I was challenged by. I think that the best movie that I've seen in Far is honesty. Oh God.

Viren 28:10

It's a topic.

SPEAKER_04 28:11

I'm just trying to think, and I've lost my train of thought for a second. Can we come back to this question? We can take that.

Viren 28:16

It was funny when you were when you were thinking, I was like, I know the opposite. Is that that film Liar Liar? Where is it Jim Kerry? Does he get a curse where he's gonna tell the truth all the time? That's what came to mind for me.

SPEAKER_05 28:28

Yeah, I love that. So there you go. We'll do the antithesis of the question and we'll go the opposite of this. There you go, that works.

Viren 28:35

Um, a book or framework that you think is uh a great showcase of this value.

SPEAKER_04 28:39

Yes, I pulled this book out of my bookcase. There's a few in there. Um I read Untamed by Glenn and Doyle quite a few years ago now. So it's probably gone down my top five. But what I loved about this is how honest she was with her situation. So she left a heterosexual marriage and entered into a um homosexual marriage. She was with a woman and she had to get really honest with her parents. And she said, We created this metaphorical moat. And she said, until my parents could accept that this was my change of life, this was what I wanted to live, they were not allowed to cross into our island. And she was so protective of her family unit. And until people accepted her and said yes, including her own mother, she said, You can't come. I'm not letting you infiltrate what we've built and what is special to me. And it was just wow, you can be so honest with your own family because sometimes we just think, oh, they're blood, we'll just accept them as they are. But no, she was oh, it was just brilliant. So one of my favorite books for that particular value.

Viren 29:45

I love it, and it's such a powerful metaphor for boundaries and like that what's your moat? I think it's a very uh yeah, very powerful. And the last question, a song that makes it look as as corny as it is.

SPEAKER_05 29:58

I mean, Billy Joel just hit it out of the park with this one.

SPEAKER_04 30:01

But when you think about the lyrics, and I think when it was released in the 70s or the 80s, so a little bit before my time, but when you think honesty is uh such a lonely word because everyone is so untrue and it still rings true to this day. We can still be so connected with social media, but still feel incredibly lonely and isolated. So I just thought it was really interesting. When you mentioned song, I went, oh, of course Billy Joel springs to mind. But I did a deep dive into more about the lyrics and went, Yeah, wow, still true to this day. Yeah.

Viren 30:36

And I think that leads nicely onto the kind of, I guess, the uh the where I've been I've been interested to explore is around the role of AI and technology and in in particular, how does it is it an enabler or a blocker to your value of honesty? And I think I've had some interesting responses. I'm and I I've got some hypotheses based on what you've said, but I'd love to what's your overall take, AI, especially socials and technology, enabler or a blocker when it comes to honesty?

SPEAKER_04 31:01

Um Well, we know AI is only going to feed us the information that it has been given. And is that the whole honest picture about a particular topic or a particular idea or a concept or history or what have you? So I don't think it's necessarily going to feed you back what you want. I believe though, where we have this ability to grow and adapt to is that sometimes if I'm using my Claude, for instance, and it feeds me some information, and I think to myself, I'm not, I'm not 100% sold on that. I need you to go and work on this because I'm not willing to accept the first draft. I'm not res I'm not willing to recep like that's the fee, I'm not ready for that feedback. So I just think, can you do this instead? And it's that honest feedback of this is really what I'm after. What have you got for me? And again, it's a two-way street. It doesn't always work that way. But I've been getting a lot better pushing back and then getting something that I actually think to myself, oh, this is good. This is this is the ballpark we need to be in, and I can take it from here. Thanks, Claude.

Viren 32:06

Yeah. It's uh it's so interesting. I I think you know, there's um because even when you were talking earlier and I knew this question was coming up. I'm like, oh, it's so interesting now how people before giving some feedback, they'll go to Claude or Chat GPT and go, I want to say this, but make it nice. You know, it's like they've put this step in now, instead of having that, I would say, more honest version of the conversation, they've gone through and it's modelled it up a bit. But actually, when they're when we're talking with it, we often will get more direct with uh with how we deliver the feedback. And it's so I think it's just interesting the types of behaviors it's modelling, what we're using it for. Um yeah, fascinating. Now, obviously we've had a lot, we've got uh we've covered a fair bit of ground, but you've mentioned a few times that you obviously the work that you do, and I know that you're launching a new program soon, and I'd love to hear more about your program and yeah.

SPEAKER_04 32:59

Because Virin, I don't have anything else better to do with my time than just do more things. So running the business, we've also got I'm also getting my foundation off the ground at the moment here in WA, but there are two things that I want to launch between now and the end of this year because even though we're halfway through August, I've still got time. There's still plenty of time. And it's this whole sort of momentum of being 40. I've got time. There's still time to do things. I'm not giving up just yet. So I've got a group. We're just getting started. We're just getting started. We're just getting started. Exactly. I've got I've got knowledge now. I've made mistakes and now I've got money.

SPEAKER_05 33:37

So let's go.

Viren 33:38

And you've got ideas. Like it's like, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 33:41

So the two things I wanted to chat to you about today is I've got a group program that I'll be announcing for start date in September, late September.

SPEAKER_04 33:49

It's called Bootcamp. It really is the basic fundamentals of being a more prolific and phenomenal speaker. And we the world needs it. We need to be communicating more with each other because, like we've just sort of been talking about AI and all of that is taking a lot of our language away from us. But the people who are going to rise above it are the ones that can still communicate through their voices in the rooms, on stages, on podcasts, for instance. So I'm working hard behind the scenes to get that off the ground. And then I've been wanting to do a podcast myself, and God knows we don't need any more podcasts, but sure, I'm gonna throw it.

Viren 34:26

We do, we do, bring them on.

SPEAKER_04 34:29

Because honest, for me, I love the idea of a substack. I'm not a writer. I mean, I can, but it's not my medium. My medium is talking. And so again, being very inspired by the 40s movement, if you can call it that. I am sort of playing with this idea of having a podcast and it's called 40. Now what? Ah, yes. And so it's this play on this is not it's not middle age anymore. It's like I'm 40. Now what do I get to do? And so I want to talk to people, you're on my list, about their experiences of turning 40, what was happening in the lead up to it, what have you experienced now? What's next? What's possible? And really bringing a bit more oomph on audacity into this demographic because I'm just here and I want to learn, I want to know, I want to be inspired by others. And so yeah, I'm just I'm gonna go with that. That's gonna be that's gonna be launching in November. I've just picked a date and that's what's gonna happen.

Viren 35:26

I love it. It's like it's locked in now. You've you've communicated it.

SPEAKER_04 35:30

I said to my friend in I said to my friend in Queensland, I said, would you fly over for the launch party? And she said, Yes, what's the date? And I went, okay, great. Now I've got to work backwards from this gonna happen. Mythic, this this random date that I've just set myself so she can book her flights. So it's all her fault, and I'm just a willing participant in this whole project.

Viren 35:49

No, I I do love it because I do remember as I started my business in my very late 30s, and I do remember similar to you, going, Ah, did I leave it too late? I always knew I wanted to start a business. And I was like, Did I leave it too late? And then I just came across this research which says actually your chances of success are massively higher in your 40s and 50s starting a business because of all the things you mentioned. You made the mistakes, you've got the networks, and yes, you that that's the we see the narrative is all these youthful founders, but actually, hit rate, percentage hit rate, 40s, 50s, great time to be starting a business. And so is it's well now I'm 40. Now what? I can actually, I've got the wealth of stuff to to do my own thing, and it's uh it's very exciting. Love it. Um, it's been so awesome having this chat. I've loved diving into the value of honesty. I think there's there's so many different facets, and I just um yeah, I I love the core of it, which is you know, the having more honest conversations with ourselves, figuring out how we deliver more honest messages to others, and I think just becoming more honest around what what's what does my life need to look like for it to be successful and not being attracted by all these things that we see in here. So I think it's such a such thing. I want to live a big life.

SPEAKER_04 36:57

I want to live a big life. So what needs to happen? Let's go.

Viren 37:02

Let's go. What a note to end on. Thank you so much. It's been great having this chat. I'm sure we'll talk again very soon.

SPEAKER_04 37:09

Thanks, Viran. Thanks, everyone.